[DESCRIPTION] Doron Perez speaks to the camera with a blank background. The Touro University logo is at the bottom right.

[DORON PEREZ] The World Zionist Organization founded by Herzl today owns arguably the most powerful, impactful, and transformational Jewish nonprofit organization, and that is Keren Kayemeth LeIsrael. What is Keren-- what is Keren Kayemeth LeIsrael? People don't know this. Keren Kayemeth LeIsrael is the predominant land owner in Israel. Legally in Israel, the land ownership in 1948 was not put under the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, the Israeli electorate, but kept under the vehicle created of the Jewish people known as the World Zionist Organization. 

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[DESCRIPTION] Touro Talks intro displaying photos of students and faculty across the university, fading into the Touro University logo.

[TEXT] Building Bridges: A Conversation with Rabbi Doron Perez, April 2, 2025, Touro Talks is sponsored by Robert and Arlene Rosenberg

[DESCRIPTION] Dr. Alan Kadish speaks to the camera from a living space. The Touro University logo is at the bottom right.

[ALAN KADISH] Hi, I'm Dr. Alan Kadish, President of Touro University. Welcome to Touro Talks. Today, we have the absolute pleasure of having one of the great Jewish leaders with us on Touro Talks, Rav Doron Perez. 

[DESCRIPTION] Dalia Ziada joins Dr. Alan Kadish.

[ALAN KADISH] Rav Perez is a rabbi, educator, and author. 

He's the executive chairman of the World Mizrachi movement, previously having served as chief executive. He was born and raised in South Africa and at age 18 made Aliyah. After serving in the army, as well as learning in Yeshiva for 10 years, he received rabbinic ordination as well as a bachelor of education and an MA in Jewish history from Haifa University. 

He returned to South Africa, where he was executive director of Mizrachi South Africa and senior rabbi of the Mizrachi shul. In 2014, he returned to Israel and became the chief executive of the World Mizrachi movement. He's driven the revitalization of the organization as a global movement. 

He was behind the 2023 World Orthodox Israel Conference that welcomed over 1,000 delegates from 48 countries. He lives in Yad Binyamin with his wife and four children. He's the author of several books. 

His son Daniel was declared missing in action following the Hamas invasion of Israel, and his death was, unfortunately, confirmed in March of 2024. Daniel was a commander of a tank crew in the Israeli Defense Forces and was destroyed defending Jews on October 7. His other son, Yonatan, was also lightly wounded in action, and Rav Perez has been a spokesman for parents who have lost children during the Hamas invasion. Welcome, Rabbi Perez. 

[DORON PEREZ] Thank you, Dr. Kadish. It's an honor and a privilege to be on Touro Talks. And thank you for hosting me. 

[ALAN KADISH] My pleasure, so I gave you a little bit of an extensive biography, but tell us a little-- tell us some things that weren't in the, sort of, pre-recorded bio about yourself. 

[DORON PEREZ] Yeah, I grew up interestingly in South Africa, even though my father is from North Africa. 

[TEXT] Rabbi Doron Perez, Executive Chairman of the Mizrachi World Movement

[DORON PEREZ] Anyone with the surname Perez or Peretz is generally Moroccan. They're Jewish. So my father was actually Moroccan-born in Casablanca, moved to Israel with the Moroccan Aliyah of the '50s, and came on a visit to South Africa in the late 1960s. And there met my mother. And like almost all South African Jews, she's of Lithuanian descent. 

So I grew up technically from a Moroccan Sephardi background, but in an Ashkenazi community, only knew Ashkenazi customs. That's all I knew and did and essentially davened, and was part of an Ashkenazi community. I grew up also in a traditional Jewish home, not religious, very Zionistic home, very connected to Israel. I was one of the only people I knew whose -- grandparents lived in, lived in Israel. My-- 

[ALAN KADISH] So Doron, Could you tell our audience, not all of who may be familiar with it, what the significance of coming from a Sephardi background but growing up in an Ashkenazi community, what that meant and what the implications of that are? 

[DORON PEREZ] Well, firstly, I didn't really know much about the Sephardic tradition. Because even though, there's different traditions. I grew up in an Ashkenazi community. The entire South African Jewish community, almost in its entirety is from Lithuania. And therefore, there really is only one Sephardic community, and that are people who came from Rhodes, what they call Rodos, which is quite European. There was one community like that in Johannesburg and one in Cape Town. 

So literally 99% of the community was Ashkenazi. So I didn't even know that I was Sephardic, and I didn't know what it meant. And I also grew up in a community, which wasn't-- I wasn't religious. Around my bar mitzvah time, my parents started becoming more observant through a young, dynamic rabbi. And they -- we slowly started going to synagogue more and to shul, and we eventually all became Shomrei Shabbat. 

So during our teenage years, myself and my other three siblings, we all became observant through my parents and went to the Jewish day schools. And it's only there when I started studying more Jewish law, Halachah, I realized, hang on, I'm actually technically Sephardic. And that's when I started exploring my Sephardic roots. And then I went to yeshiva when I was 18. I wanted to be a doctor, but I said, I'll go for a year to study in yeshiva in Israel and then come back to study medicine in South Africa. 

And during my years, my year in yeshiva, one year turned into two, which turned into three. In my third year in yeshiva, my parents made Aliyah in 1991, just after the Gulf War. My parents have been in Israel since then, now for 34 years, since 1991. And I decided not to go into medicine. I decided to continue in yeshiva. 

I always wanted to work with people. And I think once I was in yeshiva, I felt that, perhaps, I could do that not only through, let's say, healing of the body in medicine, perhaps, of the spirit, and to go into the world of rabbinics and education. And hence, that's the path that I followed. 

And I have to say is that even though I was trying to discover my Sephardic roots, when I got married and we had our first child, Yonatan, I had a Shalom Zachor after you have a baby boy. And my Sephardic friends said to me, Doron, why are you having a Shalom Zachor? Shalom Zachor is an Ashkenazi custom. 

I said, what do you mean it's an Ashkenazi custom? You have a baby. You have a Shalom Zachor. They said no. We have something called a Brit Yitzchak. I've never heard of it. And my wife said to me, you know Doron, you think you're Sephardi. You're actually Ashkenazi because everything about you is Ashkenazi. 

So I actually went to ask one of the Gedolei Yisroel. His name is Zalman Nachemia Goldberg ZT”L. He was a son-in-law of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach. He said to me, Doron, I pasken [rule] that you're Ashkenazi, and he gave me reasons why. And not everyone agreed with him. 

So he said to me because you grew up in an Ashkenazi community and that's what you know and you're married to an Ashkenazi and I was going back anyway to be the Rabbi of an Ashkenazi community, I keep Minhag Ashkenaz. And I went back to South Africa, as you said at that point. Even though my parents lived in Israel in 1999, 25 and 1/2 years ago, I went back to South Africa for a two year Shlichut with my wife and our older son, Yonatan, who was then four months old. 

Now what happens in life, Dr. Kadish, "Der mentsch tracht un Gott lacht". A person plans and God laughs. I said, I'll go back for two years to give back to the community I grew up in. Two years became 15 years. If you would have told me I would have spent 15 years in South Africa after my whole family had made Aliyah, I would have said, no way. But things happen the way they're supposed to happen. 

And I felt a tremendous sense of shlichut in South Africa to bring a deep sense of religious Zionism, of what we call Torat Eretz Yisrael, a deep connection to Torah but also to the centrality of Israel and the role that it plays today. And one thing led to another. I became from associate rabbi to senior rabbi, was the director of the Mizrachi-- local Mizrachi movement. 

I became head of the school of a thousand children called Yeshiva College, the actual school that I studied in as well. And my two years became 5, became 10, became 15. And then when the world Mizrachi movement was looking for a younger CEO in 2014, I was very fortunate to be considered, nominated and selected, and our family came back to Israel 10 and 1/2 years ago now with four children. 

The young Yonatan, who was four months old, was now 15. And Daniel, Adina, and Shira were all born in South Africa, and we returned to Israel 10 years ago to fulfill the role at World Mizrachi. 

[ALAN KADISH] So you've mentioned World Mizrachi a couple of times, and that was a major part of your career. Can you tell us what is Mizrachi, what is world Mizrachi and how you became involved? 

[DORON PEREZ] Sure. Mizrachi is the religious Zionist movement, formerly part of the Zionist movement. We know that when Herzl in 1897 founded the Zionist movement to bring Jews back to Israel, many in the Orthodox religious world were not sure what to do with this organization. After all, Herzl didn't quite seem to be the image of the ingatherer of the exiles that maybe the prophets had spoken about. He wasn't a religious man. 

It's actually anti-Semitism which brought him more to his roots. And a lot of people didn't know what to do with this organization because it didn't seem and isn't, you know, totally a religious organization. 

But many Eastern European rabbis—led by Rav Yitzhak Reines, one of the great Gedolim of the time, and Rabbi Shmuel Mohilever, also another. Both of them av beit din, Rav Mohilever in Bialystok, and Rav Reines in Lida. Major towns. Major heads of the beit din and tremendous Talmidei Chachamim. They both decided that, although the organization is founded by a secular Jew, and many secular Jews are part of it, the mission is a holy mission. A two-fold mission to save Jews from the pogroms of Eastern Europe as we know. 

The horrific pogroms which spread like wildfire across Russia, Which, by the way, in the 40 years from 1882 to 1924, brought 2 million Jews to the United States of America. We know that in 1882, it was not a particularly strong Jewish community. Everything changed in 42 years, but all of a sudden, 2 million Jews, as a result of these -- the Russian pogroms -- came not only to South Africa from Lithuania, but also, to the United States. 

And during this time, when the World Zionist Organization was founded, these rabbonim said, the holy mission is twofold, number one, to save Jews from Eastern European pogroms, and secondly, to bring them back to Israel, to settle the land of Israel. And even though not all of the people involved in this are religious and there will be issues, we should partner and be part of the holy mission of saving Jews and bringing them back to the land. 

And hence, the Religious Zionist Movement was founded, religious Jews joining Zionism. And I have to say that in 1901, 1902, the movement started breaking up into different parties, as the ideologies were sharpened and differentiated. And the religious Jews banded together in a movement called Mizrachi, which doesn't only mean East, it's actually an acronym for two Hebrew words "Merkaz" "Ruchani", Spiritual Center. 

"Miz", the first and last letter of the word, "Merkaz", and "Ruchani", "rachi" Ruchani, Spiritual Center. They believed that the Zionist movement needs to be connected to its center, its source, which is Torah, Jewish history, and Jewish destiny. And that has been the role that Mizrachi has fulfilled for over 125 years now, around 123 years now is to be the spiritual component. 

What the founders of Mizrachi, said, Zionism is the collective body of the Jewish people, bringing the Jewish people back as a national entity to Israel. But everybody needs a soul, and the soul is the Torah. And Mizrachi came to bring to the center of the Zionist movement Torah values. 

And I have to say, coming from a Zionist background myself, but not a religious one, I feel very grateful that as I grew in my Jewish observance, it translated into deepening my connection to Israel and not distancing me from it. Even though Israel is secular, I mean the Zionist movement, and even though not all of it is religious, I feel blessed that my spiritual journey and growth, especially when I learned the words of Rav Soloveitchik, who was, as we know, not only the Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva University, but also the president of Mizrachi, and many of his great speeches and philosophy of Zionism was developed at the five addresses that he gave at the National Conferences of Mizrachi in the '40s, '50s, and '60s in the United States, but also Rav Kook. When I came to Israel, to Yeshiva, at the age of 18, and I studied for the first time the words of the founding chief rabbi of Israel of pre-state Israel, Rav Kook, it transformed my life. All of a sudden saw one of the greatest sages of his generation, being able to bring the old world of Volozhin, where he was a great student of Rav Kook, to bring it with unconditional support of the Zionist movement, founding the chief rabbinate, believing in the veracity of the mission of the pioneers, even though many were distant from the values of Torah. 

Believing that we have to bridge worlds, that the national revival of the Jewish people should be deeply connected to its spirit. And I think, Dr. Kadish, this spoke to my soul because it felt to me that when I started thinking about why I was so drawn specifically, I think the three thinkers who initially impacted in my life the most were Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, Rav Kook, and Rav Soloveitchik. 

And when I reflect on why specifically those three, because I think they all try to bridge conflicting worlds. Because Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, in Germany, which said, we have to have Torah, in derech eretz. We have to find a way to bring the Torah to the heart of the modern world and to combine in general studies, et cetera. 

We saw Rav Kook, who tried to bring the values of Torah to the national revival of the Jewish people, to Zionism. That's what he tried to do. And thirdly, Rav Soloveitchik brought the word of Torah to the world of the American orthodoxy and modern orthodoxy, Torah Umadda, to bridge the worlds of secular knowledge and Torah. 

And I think those three thinkers spoke to my soul in that life is about bridging contradictions and not sharpening them. And I think that brought me to the world of Mizrachi, where you can, indeed, be part of deeply striving for authentic Torah Judaism, but embrace the revival of the Jewish people, the Zionist movement. Although it has in both challenges, one can bridge the gaps. 

[ALAN KADISH] So you mentioned several times that there were some rabbis who objected to embracing Zionism, and of course, that conflict to some extent, continues today. What is the philosophy behind that conflict? What are the points of contention, and is there a way to bridge that gap with those who still seem uncomfortable with at least what you so eloquently and passionately referred to as traditional Zionism? 

[DORON PEREZ] Yeah. I understand that already, when Mizrachi was founded, I understand why a number of rabbanim and many leading rabbanim felt not to join the World Zionist Movement. Because it is a secular movement, and its values, some of them were antithetical to Torah, and life is complex. And understood that, even though the other great-great rabbis felt that you need to partner because it's a holy mission, they were really many challenges and I understood why many were not quite sure if this movement would end up being anti-Torah or not anti-Torah, would it be parable? Would it be anti? 

And many kept it at arm's length understandably. And I think it's the same today. Even though the state of Israel has proven, proved-- I think proved is the better word than proven-- that not only has it built a Jewish state, there's 7 million Jews living there, and not only are there 7 million Jews living there, the Torah world in Israel has flourished, perhaps, beyond any time in Jewish history. 

I often say that, hands down, the largest contributor to Torah learning in the world is the Israeli government, is the taxpayers of Israel, which have built the yeshiva world in the most unbelievable way. But like then, so too today, despite all the achievements of the state of Israel and Zionism, not everything in Israel is run according to Torah values. And therefore, understandably, some people still feel that Torah Judaism, it doesn't fully work with everything in the Zionist movement. 

And some feel certain things in the Zionist movement as heretical, founded on secular, nationalist cultural values. And they found it hard to reconcile. And I think especially many people who are purists and say, it needs to be a lot more aligned. And I think, Dr. Kadish, I think this is a machloket in life, I think, which goes, and I think it's "Elu v'elu divrei elokim hayim." It's both are the words of the living God. 

I think one of the most profound ideas in all of Judaism, and I would argue one of the most important messages in the world today that none of us have a monopoly on truth, even the truth of Torah. God's absolute truth, which came down to Mount Sinai, there isn't one interpretation. 

"Elu v'elu divrei elokim hayim." There are genuine different interpretations. Not that anything goes. We don't believe in subjective truth that anything goes. We believe in objective truth, but we believe that even objective truth has varied interpretations. There can't be one truth fits all, even the truth of Torah, the great bat kol, the heavenly voice, which came out and said, "Elu v'elu divrei elokim hayim." Both of these words are the words of the living God. 

So I think this is a genuine argument. By the way, Rav Soloveitchik explains famously in his five addresses that this was the debate between Yehuda and Yosef. This was exactly the debate, says Rav Soloveitchik famously in the five addresses, that Judah and the brothers and his beit din were concerned that Yosef was too worldly. 

Why is Yosef dreaming about sheaves of corn and stars in the sky? He's, perhaps, the man of science, the man of agriculture, the man of economy. We know that Yosef, Yosef's greatest strength, was as an economist, as a politician. 

Yehuda's greatest strength was the one that says, "Vayishlach et yehuda lehorot lefanav." Yaakov sent Yehuda down to Egypt to build batei midrash and batei knesset. Yehuda's genius was he was the head of the beit din. He was the head of the spirit. Yosef's genius was he was the head of economy and politics, and they were at odds, explains Soloveitchik, famously. 

And the brothers felt that the ideology of Yosef was too embracing of Egyptian culture, and therefore, that even then, there were great hashkafic arguments, which almost ended tragically, and by the grace of God and the forgiveness of Yosef and the greatness of the brothers, it ended up in unity. 

So I think, Dr. Kadish, hashkafic debates, halachic debates within the Jewish people have always been. And so too today. There are many who feel that even those we know, there's the new party called Eretz Hakodesh and Shas, I personally welcome this. I think that the fact that Haredi lets people who may be, perhaps, traditionally less Zionistic in the traditional sense of embracing Zionism, the state of Israel, wish to be part of the Zionist movement. I think today, especially today, when Zionism in the state of Israel is under such a threat, the more people who overtly identify as pro-Israel and Zionists is critical. 

But I think for us, at Mizrachi, it's always been the most natural thing. We've been part of the movement, not in the last five years, not drawn into it because of anything circumstantial, because of a genuine belief that despite the complexity of life and despite the fact that things aren't always the way we would like them to be and aren't as religious as we'd like them to be, and aren't as perfect as we'd like them to be, we have to find ways to bridge gaps. 

So I think, Dr. Kadish, the argument is as old as the Jewish people themselves. I think there is a shift in the Jewish world that I think the state of Israel today is not 600,000 Jews, that it was in 1948. It's 7 million Jews. 

And it's not 400 Yeshivah Bochurim, when the Chazon Ish signed the agreement with Ben-Gurion, there were only 400 full-time yeshiva bochurim. Can you believe this? 400 in 1948. Today, hundreds of thousands. And therefore, something has shifted in the Jewish world. 

The state of Israel is not only the state of secular people, it's the state of all of the Jewish people. In 1967, the chief rabbi, then, the Sephardic Chief Rabbi Rav Yaakov Nissim, wrote, he said, for 19 years, we've had the state of Israel without its soul, Yerushalayim. In 1967, we got back our soul, Yerushalayim. 

The body and soul are all one, the land of Israel, its deepest religious parts, and it's all its general parts are together. And hence, I think today the state of Israel is 77 years later, half of the Jewish people live there. The center of the Torah world is here. The center of the Jewish world is there. 

And therefore, I think as its reality is becoming more and more understood, and I think especially after the 7th of October, we understand today how central the state of Israel, the land of Israel is in Jewish life. I think more and more Jews who maybe traditionally, I have to say, from the progressive left as well, who maybe some who had a little bit uncomfortable with the, it's called the nationalism and, you know, the particularism of the Zionist movement. Many of them have considered themselves October 8 Jews. They now identify, unapologetically, as Zionist, feeling let down by the liberal world. So I personally believe, Dr. Kadish, that if it's from the left or the right, people today prepare to embrace the word Zionism, that it's no longer as in conflict with the universal values or in conflict with the religious values is a blessing. 

But I think for us, as the Mizrachi movement, it's always been natural. It's always been an embracing of these conflicts, looking for that which unites and bridges, as opposed to that which segregates. 

[ALAN KADISH] So you mentioned that there are some profound disagreements, and I guess there's going to be a Congress and an election. And I think there are 21 parties who are running, representing those differences. Can you tell us a little bit about the history of the World Zionist Congress and the implications of the upcoming Congress and the election? 

[DORON PEREZ] Yeah. You know Dr. Kadish, I call the World Zionist Congress elections the best kept secret in the diaspora. Most important election that people can vote in that they don't know about. And I want to explain, I want to demystify these elections, why they are, in my opinion, one of the most impactful things that every Jew around the world can do and why it's been kept such a secret. 

You see, the World Zionist organization, founded by Herzl today owns arguably the most powerful, impactful, and transformational Jewish nonprofit organization, and that is Keren Kayemet LeYisrael. What is Keren Kayemet LeYisrael? People don't know this. Keren Kayemet LeYisrael is the predominant land owner in Israel. 

Legally, in Israel, the land ownership in 1948 was not put under the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, the Israeli electorate, but kept under the vehicle created of the Jewish people, known as the World Zionist Organization. So the World Zionist Organization, today, owns 100% Keren Kayemet LeYisrael, and Keren Kayemet LeYisrael is the greatest land owner in Israel. 

The house I live in, in Yad Binyamin, is owned by Keren Kayemet. When we bought our home, we paid a 13% land tax to Keren Kayemet LeYisrael. So you've got a powerful organization, billions and billions of dollars, with very important decisions to make that I'll speak about in a minute, owned, not by the Israeli electorate, owned by world Jewry. 

You see, how does it work? It's an electoral college, the World Zionist Organization. By the way, I think it's one of the only organizations like this in the world, maybe the only one. We have reformed Jews on the left and Haredi Jews on the right, the most right-wing politically and liberal and left wing can all sit together in one place. 

And you know how it's worked out? An incredible electoral college. 40% of the vote is the Israeli electorate from Israeli elections. So Israeli politicians own 40% of the World Zionist Organization. The other 60% is 30% Jews from the United States of America, 30%, the rest of the world. And an incredibly 60% of the World's Zionist Organization, 60% of the ownership of the land of Israel is directly under diaspora Jews, and they don't even know it. 

So this election over here is for the electoral college of 30% of the vote from the American Jewry through the AZM, the American Zionist Movement. And that's what it's about. And it's so transformational because land ownership in Israel, for instance, the Keren Kayemet LeYisrael of its billions of dollars of budget, should that money go to develop Jewish life in East Jerusalem, in Judea and Samaria? Many people say, no. It shouldn't be anything controversial. 

We say, well, what's controversial today about East Jerusalem? What's controversial today about Efrat and Gush Etzion? But many voices in the progressive left say no, the policy should not be over the green line. And one of the things we fight for is that it should be across Israel, number one. Number two, there's massive, massive budgets. 

The education budget of Keren Kayemet LeYisrael is 250 million shekels a year. Why shouldn't that go to Torah education? And not only Torah education, Torah education, which believes in service in the army and supporting all of these things. 

So I want to say that these elections give a voice to every single American, Jew and Jewess from the age of 18 and up, who identifies and signs up online as part of the Zionist movement, has an opportunity to impact 30% of what happens in these organizations. 

I am one of the global representatives, the heads of Mizrachi, who represent our global religious Zionist community. And I just want to say, we are blessed that in the United States of America, 10 of the major organizations, which are part of, let's call it the broader speaking, we've called it the Orthodox Israel Coalition, a coalition of organizations and active unity, organizations which believe in Torah and service to the people of Israel. 

Torah, in general, studies, Torah and embracing the modern world, be it Touro University, be it the Orthodox Union, be it Bnei Akiva, be it Amit be it Yeshiva University, be it the RCA, National Council of Young Israel. We are a conglomeration of called Orthodox Israel Coalition, a coalition of organizations committed to these values. And it's these values that we want to give expression in the elections of the World Zionist Congress. 

[ALAN KADISH] So it's extraordinarily important, as you describe, because much of the future spending that will help direct the future of the Jewish people will be decided either at this Congress or around the Congress. 

[TEXT] Dr. Alan Kadish, President, Touro University

[ALAN KADISH] And that's why we do urge everyone to vote. 

We were at the last Congress together, and it wasn't always friendly. Some of those disagreements that you described were front and center to much of what happened at the Congress. Do you think those issues will surface again? What are the important issues that you think will come up this year and that we want everyone in the United States, every Jew in the United States, to make their voice heard about these issues? 

[DORON PEREZ] Yeah, that's a great question. Firstly, as you say, to encourage anyone and everyone until March, it started in March 10, it's a 50-day voting in America. It ends on May 4. So to encourage everybody to voteoic.org. Firstly, to participate in these elections, to be part and parcel of the Zionist movement from across the board. And secondly, to identify with the values that Mizrachi, Touro, and all the organizations that spoke about are about a deep commitment to Torah, to the people of Israel, and the land and state of Israel, and service in the Israeli army, alongside the Torah learning. 

Voteoic.org, which is Orthodox Israel Coalition. Mizrachi, we say it actually works very well. We slate number 5. So what we say to everybody is a very simple thing. Spend less than 5 minutes to impact $5 billion. You just have to pay $5 and vote slate number 5. So I think it's very, very important that everybody should do that. 

But I want to say beyond the voting for slate number 5, I think what's critical over here is the understanding of what the issues at hand are. Alan, the reason why there was such an argument last time around, unfortunately, was because a lot of Israeli politics was dragged into world Jewish politics. 

What was the issue a couple of years ago, if you remember? A lot of it is around the judicial reform. A lot of it is around all types of issues, which were splitting the Jewish people in the Israeli Knesset. And these same issues were brought to the World Zionist Organization. 

One of the things which troubled me so much a number of years ago was during the initial part of the judicial reform, which actually brought about the dispute amongst the Jews of October 6 played a major role in what Sinwar did on October 7. Was Jews around the world and in Israel couldn't even talk to each other. 

It was the first time that I'd seen in my lifetime that Jews were so divided that people couldn't even talk to each other. You were either with us or against us. There was no middle ground. And that same divisive politics came to the World Zionist Organization. 

One of the things that Mizrachi was campaigning then and proudly about today is we don't have to bring every single issue which divides us in Israeli politics to the World Zionist Organization. The World Zionist Organization and Keren Kayemet do not decide on a two-state solution. They don't decide on whether there's going to be annexation or not. Those political issues are decided by the Knesset. 

Judicial reform is going to be decided by the Knesset. I sometimes feel we bring the divisive issues which have to be decided on in Israeli politics into the World Zionist Organization, which doesn't make these decisions. The decisions of the World Zionist Organization, as I said, are development of land in Israel. Not annexation or not political issues of the statehood, but issues of using Keren Kayemet, money and policy to develop land in Israel and invest in educational endeavors that are important to the different movements. 

So I do think that one of the things that we at Mizrachi and Orthodox Israel Coalition are very committed to is bridge building. We've got a strong backbone. We are driven by ideology, but we believe that today, the biggest issue facing the Jewish people, especially post Octobers 7, is the divisiveness amongst us, the polarizing amongst us. 

To quote Rav Soloveitchik again, he says the first covenant the Jewish people have to commit with each other is the covenant of fate, which is exactly what Pesach is about. Before we receive the Torah, the covenant of destiny, we have a covenant of being a historic community, the children of Abraham and Sarah, B'nai Israel. And we have to understand today that we're in this together. We're in this together. 

And before we are able to argue the differences, we have to understand "ki anashim achim anachnu." We are brothers and sisters together. So, Alan, I do believe we Jews and we human beings, and there are going to be arguments, and we're going to differ over lots of different issues. But I believe that the World Zionist Organization has the potential to be an agent of more unity, because it does not have to make decisions on issues which are polarizing, which the Israeli government does. 

And one other thing, a lot of people don't know this. What makes American politics and Israeli politics different from the World Zionist Organization politics is that both in American politics and in Israel, it's winner take all. If Trump beat Kamala Harris, then the Trump administration appoints every single person that he wants to to the positions of power in the government, in his administration. 

In Israel, it's the same thing. You have to form a coalition. But once the coalition has more than 60 members of parliament, the coalition can appoint every single minister and runs every single office. It's not the same in the World Zionist Organization. 

The World Zionist organization is always a gentleman's agreement. Where from the extreme left and extreme right, everybody signs together based on relative power. There's power sharing, each one based on their relative power sharing. That's how it's worked all of the years, and that's how it's going to continue to work. 

Which means that at the DNA of this organization, that despite Jews from the diaspora and Israel and despite the different streams and despite all the different ideologies, the DNA of this organization is to try to reach agreement around everybody's relative strength. And therefore, we at Mizrachi, as opposed to some of the other movements, are always trying to look at, not only how we can dominate-- because the essence of the World Zionist Organization is not domination, it's power sharing-- to see how we can leverage our ideology to have the biggest impact that it can, but without dominating, without overpowering. 

Because you can only leverage your relative strength. It's not coalitions against oppositions. I mean, of course, there are certain policy decisions. Decisions are made by the majority. So in certain policies, you have to rally and get a majority. But at the heart of the WZO is trying to reach consensus on issues. And I personally believe that this particular organization, especially now, which represents Jews from the left and the right, religious and irreligious, from all the streams and all the geographies, can and should be, at this time, when you're under such threat, be a driver of Jewish unity and not Jewish polarization. 

[ALAN KADISH] So just to clarify a couple of the things that you said. When you said that everyone is involved, just to use an analogy, if there were a cabinet such as there is in the United States or Israel, each party, based on proportional representation would have some representatives in the cabinet. And that's the fundamental structure. 

[DORON PEREZ] Exactly right. 

[ALAN KADISH] That's the fundamental structure of the World Zionist Organization. 

[DORON PEREZ] Exactly right. 

[ALAN KADISH] I think you made a great point about people talking to each other. Of course, as you pointed out, there was a long history of disagreement within the Jewish people. And perhaps, the most eloquent or widely known example of this was the controversy between two groups of scholars, Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai, in the Talmud. 

But yet, they always spoke to each other. They intermarried. It wasn't a sense of division, but a sense of philosophical and intellectual disagreement. Yet, they remain friends, kind of the way American politics used to be until, perhaps, the last couple of decades. 

And I think that ideal is something that I'm very pleased to hear that you strive for, because I think, as you point out, it's an important raison d'etre of Mizrachi, in its position to combine religious Judaism with Zionism and the important thing that we should continue to strive for. We won't always succeed, as you pointed out, but hopefully, we can do a better job at this Congress, particularly if we get enough representation from Mizrachi. 

[DORON PEREZ] Yeah. I want to say, Dr. Kadish, you make an incredible point here and I just want to focus on it for a few moments. I think Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai is exactly the right example, and I just want to add one point. Probably, the most famous arguments in all of Talmudic literature between the House, the Yeshivas of Hillel and Shammai. They disagree, I think, on 316 different issues, I think, if I remember correctly, it's 316 issues, sugyas that they disagree on. 

And some of those issues are all about marriage and divorce and mamzerut and Jewish identity. Yet, as you point out, the Talmud in masekhet, I think it's Yevamot daf yud daled says that even though they disagreed on so many issues about marriage and divorce, they always found a way for their daughters and sons to marry each other. 

And I think that is exactly what it says in Pirkei Avot, that the example of an argument, for the sake of heaven, is that you can vehemently disagree with somebody, think that they're wrong in almost every area, but find a way, somehow to get on with each other. 

But I want to say an incredible thing is what we're striving for at Mizrachi and the Orthodox Israel Coalition. Why do we pasken like Beit Hillel? Why do we rule in accordance with Beit Hillel? Because the same voice that says in the Talmud in Masechet Eruvin, page 13, Yud Gimmel. 

It says that a voice from heaven came out and said, "Elu V'Elu Divrei Elokim Chayim." Both Hillel and both Shammai can both be right. But then the Talmud says, "V'halacha k’Beit Hillel." We rule in accordance with Beit Hillel. Why do we rule in accordance with Beit Hillel? Were they cleverer? Were they better students? Were they sharper? Incredibly, Dr. Kadish, many sources indicate that the students of Shammai were sharper and perhaps, even better students. 

So the Talmud brings three reasons in Masechet Eruvin. Why do we rule like Beit Hillel? And they are incredible reasons. Number one, it says ki aluvim hem. They were more modest and more humble. Secondly, it says, because they always quoted the opinion of Shammai, along with their opinion. And thirdly, they always quoted the opinion of Shammai before their opinion. 

Because you're more humble and you acknowledge somebody else's opinion, that's why we rule like you? Yes. Because if you understand that you don't have all of the truth, and if you understand that life is complex, the moment you think that you're the only one who's right and there's nothing else, right, that's the moment you have understood the issues of life in a simplistic, superficial way. 

We rule like Beit Hillel, because Beit Hillel understood that their perspective, as much as they believed in it, wasn't the only perspective and there are other ways of looking at it. And they would always validate the other view. And because they would give respect to the other view and validate the other view, that actually makes them having a deeper understanding. 

Meaning, the deeper understanding intellectually in life is not how much you commit to your opinion, it's how much you acknowledge that there is another opinion as well. And I believe, Alan, that's what got us into where we are on October 6. 

We had a presentation of the military findings of the shortcomings of the military intelligence and how we totally, totally got this wrong. We thought that Hamas were deterred, and were not going to do what they were going to do. We never, ever believed they would do something. We thought that the defense systems we had were good enough, and all of this was proved wrong. 

Our son lost his life on that day. Over 1,200 people lost their lives on that day. And one of the remarkable things to come out of the findings of the military intelligence and the shin beit is that they got so engrossed in one perspective that anyone who differed and anybody who said that Hamas are not deterred and they're going to attack were totally disqualified. 

And one of the findings that they've come out with is, as much as you are absolutely convinced of one perspective, you have to make sure that there are different perspectives that can be validated and taken seriously. Because the moment you think there's only one way of viewing the truth is the moment you don't fully understand the issues at hand. And unfortunately, boy, oh, boy, did we suffer from this on October 7. 

And I think it's really important that especially now as Jews, we don't have the luxury in Israel. We're not living in Switzerland. We're not surrounded by democracies. We're surrounded by people who want to exploit every weakness of ours. 

And I think now, yes, we should disagree with each other, but major disagreements and major arguments, and we should disagree with each other. But we have to do it in a way where we understand that not all of the truth is by us. We have to be respectful of other views and understand "Elu V'Elu Divrei Elokim Chayim."

Everybody, the vast majority of Jews from left to right, want the good of the Jewish people. They want the good of the state of Israel. We're all on the same side, and we should vehemently disagree with each other, as long as we understand we're part of the same side, and none of us has a full monopoly on all of the truth. 

[ALAN KADISH] So you made a very good point about October 6, October 7, and post October 7. We're seeing some of those same disagreements now crop up again, as things have at least stabilized, even though, of course, we're still fighting in Gaza. I think the World Zionist Congress, which has this incredible, illustrious history, has the opportunity of trying to embody exactly what you spoke about, of us respecting each other and working together. 

And that's why participation as a voter in the World Zionist Congress, not only will continue this incredible historic tradition. I think we've become immune to realizing what a tremendous ness or miracle the creation of the state of Israel was, how Herzl's idea grew from the first Congress, which was relatively small, to a worldwide movement, which has been as successful as you described, despite some setbacks, which you clearly acknowledged. 

And I think participation in it is something which is just an incredibly important piece of history and of our existence as Jewish people. So I'm hoping that everyone who's listening to this gets out and votes. 

And of course, Rav Doron has his own party. But as he said, we need to respect everyone, and we hope to have a very important presence of Mizrachi as Touro University, as one of the sponsors at the Congress. But even more important than which party you vote for is participation in this incredibly important moment in Jewish history, where we're recovering from October 7. Disagreements are popping up again, and here we have a chance to try to direct the future of the state of Israel, the future of the Jewish people. 

And it's really not a time to sit back, but it's a time to get out there and vote. Make your voices heard, and support those movements that will respect everyone and try to move the country forward. So I would encourage you all to take Rav Doron's words very seriously and take the 5 minutes it takes, particularly if you have a good internet connection, to vote. 

One last thing that I wanted to ask you about before we close. We've both alluded to the fact that you lost a son on October 7. And yet, you seem to have remained steadfast in your approach and commitment to Israel, steadfast in your commitment to Mizrachi. How much of a struggle has it been, or is it just as easy as you've made it seem? 

[DORON PEREZ] I've had no struggle in terms of the commitment to the things I believe in. If anything, it strengthened them. The struggle has just been a personal struggle of losing a son and having a son who's a hostage. And dealing with loss, our family went through 163 days of torture, of hoping and praying that our son is alive, finding out that he had been injured, finding out that he was deceased and had to partially bury-- I say, Dr. Kadish, we're actually lucky that we actually have a grave. 

Many of the 35 of the 59 hostages, 24 are thought to be alive. And there's proof for most of them, and 35 have been declared dead. Most of those 35 do not have a grave. They'll only have a grave. Please, God, when they come back for burial, we're actually lucky we have a grave. 

Even though Daniel's body is held in Gaza, we have his uniform. Part of his uniform was found with blood on it, and we actually buried part of it. And we're lucky we have a grave. 

So for me, the personal struggle of having a child who we've lost and we're waiting to bring back for burial and trying our best to do so, having this open wound is enormously, enormously painful. But I call it the painful privilege. 

If you look back at Jewish history and we have Pesach, and Pesach, the first thing we do in Pesach, we say, "Ha Lachma Anya." We tell our children, we want you to know that the bread that we're going to eat, the bread of redemption started out as the bread of affliction. Boy, oh, boy, have we suffered as a people. We're going to have Maror. Speak about the bitterness of Jewish history. We're going to spill "blood."

It's no walk in the park, and we tell our children "she b'chol dor v'dor  omdim aleinu l’cholutaynu." [in every generation they stand against us to destroy us] Not only pharaoh, Haman, Hitler, Hamas, it continues today. And therefore, pain and suffering is not new to the human condition. It didn't begin, hopefully it will end with the Perez family, but it didn't begin and end with us. 

We lost one child. We had another child who was saved. Saved Yonatan, and had a child, as you said, my friend Rabbi Shmuel Slotki lost two children on the day. The Bibas family lost three generations on the day. 

You go back to the Shoah. Thousands of families were obliterated and wiped out. Tzu zan a yid at times, it's not so easy to be a Jew. What did Tevya say? God, thank you for choosing us. Maybe choose somebody else for a change. It's not so easy to be a Jew, but it's a great privilege. I call it the painful privilege. 

The stakes are very high. I've never, ever felt more proud to be a Jew, because I've never felt more in my life time how much the world needs the Jewish people. The Jewish people are fighting the battle of the whole civilized world today, we are fighting with moral clarity, and we're fighting against an enemy, which takes no prisoners. And if they do take prisoners, it's only to barter with them, to trade them in the most barbaric ways. 

And I really believe the light of godliness of life that the Jewish people bring to the world, as Douglas Murray, a non-Jewish, non-religious person, says, he says the reason I support the Jewish people and the state of Israel is not for you, it's for me. If we the Western world, lose you, we may very well lose the Western world and civilization, just as Europe and the West almost lost to Nazi Germany, to fascism and to national socialism. God knows what would have been, had Britain fallen and had the Allied powers not coming to the war. God knows what would happen to the world, says Murray, if Israel falls and fanatical Islam and its associates are able to spread out into Europe and beyond. 

So for me, the struggle is a daily struggle of the pain of loss. But I feel blessed. It's not a struggle of ideology. I feel closer to God, not more distance. I feel more deeper connected to the state of Israel. I feel even more deeply connected to Jewish destiny. 

I feel our generation, after maybe 40 or 50 years of a break from Jewish history, have returned to part and parcel of the Jewish history of, unfortunately, the challenge of Jewish history as well. Of B'Chol Dor Vador. But Baruch Hashem, God promises us Vehi Sheamda, that although many try and stand up against us, Hakadosh Baruch Hu matzileinu miyadam, God saves us from them. And on October 7, despite the pain of loss of Simchat Torah, it could have, heaven forbid, been so much worse for our family of losing, God forbid, another child. 

It could have been worse for the Jewish people, not only losing 1,200 people to 5,500 terrorists. It could have been 10,000 people. Had Hezbollah joined the war, it could have been 100,000 people. Had Iran shot 500 ballistic missiles on the day, God knows what could have been in that day. 

So I think it has not made me question my ideology. It's made me strengthen it and resolve of the very painful struggle, but privilege to be part of the Jewish people. What did Kalev and Yoshua say, when the Meraglim said that we can't do it, we're fighting impossible enemies who are bigger and stronger than us. What did Kalev say? 

“Alo na’aleh,” let's go up. “Ki yachol nu’chal la”. We can do it. The challenges are great. We can do it. That's the blessing of Jewish history. That's the story of the Haggadah. We overcame pharaoh once. We overcame Haman and Hitler. We will overcome, and we will prevail. 

[ALAN KADISH] And of course, the history of the Jewish people, despite the travails, is a history of optimism.

[DORON PEREZ] Absolutely. 

[ALAN KADISH] As one of my teachers said to me, pessimism is not a Jewish trait, because we believe that we have an important role to play and that we will, ultimately, succeed. And with faith and talent and dedication like yours, I'm highly confident that that's going to happen. 

So thank you very much for joining us on Touro Talks, and we hope to see you in the future, perhaps at the Congress. 

[DORON PEREZ] Thank you. Thank you so much, Alan. Look so forward to seeing you and all of the best. Thank you for the opportunity. 

[ALAN KADISH] To our audience, thank you so much for joining Touro Talks. We look forward to seeing you in the future. Touro Talks is sponsored by Arlene and Robert Rosenberg, and we thank them for their support. 

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[TEXT] Touro Talks, Touro University, touro.edu/tourotalks

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