Hollywood and Disability: An Insider's Perspective

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[TEXT] TOURO TALKS TOURO UNIVERSITY, Hollywood and Disability: An Insider's Perspective, October 24, 2023, Touro Talks is sponsored by Robert and Arlene Rosenberg

[DESCRIPTION] ASL Interpreter- Jeff Trader, Nahum Twersky and Samuel Levine appear in a Zoom grid format, each with their respective titles displayed in their video boxes. Jeff Trader signs the spoken words.

[Samuel Levine] Tonight's program, "Hollywood and Disability-- An Insider's Perspective," represents part of Touro University, Touro Law Center, and Touro Talks' ongoing efforts to promote disability rights and inclusion. Past programs have addressed important issues, among others, relating to autism, to disability and religion, and to disability and employment. This evening, we will feature a special screening of the Oscar-nominated short Feeling Through, the first film to star a deafblind actor.

We will be joined by Doug Roland, the writer and director of the film. Doug is a social impact filmmaker. And he will share with us some of his experiences and what led him to write and to direct this very powerful film, Feeling Through. And he will share with us some of his work in disability rights and advocacy more generally.

Following the screening, Doug will be joined by partners in producing the film from the Helen Keller Center. Panelists will include Dr. Sue Ruzenski, the CEO of Helen Keller Services, Chris Woodfill, associate executive director of Helen Keller National Center, and Scott Davert, coordinator of the Technology, Research and Innovation Center at Helen Keller National Center. I should note that Chris and Scott identify as deafblind.

Tonight's speakers will share with us an insider's perspective on the making of the film, as well as broader reflections on Hollywood and disability and their ongoing advocacy for disability rights and inclusion in the entertainment industry and beyond. So I'm so pleased that we have this opportunity to be joined by Doug Roland. Doug, as I mentioned, is the writer and director of the film we are about to see, Going Through. And Doug, if you'll join us now.

[DESCRIPTION] Doug Roland joins, with his video displaying.

[Samuel Levine] I want to express just how pleased I am and how much of an honor and a pleasure it is for us, a privilege, really, to not only have the opportunity to screen this Oscar-nominated film with you, the writer and director, but also the opportunity for us to hear from you if you can share with us some of your insights, some of the behind-the-scenes, some of the background that led you to this film.

[Doug Roland] Well, thank you so much, Dr. Levine, for having us and to Touro for this event. It's definitely an honor and pleasure to be here. And yes, as you mentioned, we will be screening the film shortly, but for those who maybe aren't familiar with it, I'd love to give a little bit of context to it, which I think is something that is helpful and adds another layer to maybe the experience of watching it. I don't want to necessarily say too much about the film itself because, hopefully, that speaks for itself.

But I think it's important to note that this film, though fictional, is heavily inspired by a real life encounter that I had many years ago when I was still living in New York City, where I'm originally from. So I guess this story now starts-- geez, what is this? What year are we? 2023? I think this starts about 12 years ago. I was coming home late one evening, and I saw a man standing on a corner by himself. And as I got closer, I saw that he was holding a sign that noted that he was deafblind and in need of assistance and to tap him, which I did.

And he pulled out a notepad, wrote to me a bus stop that he needed to get to, asking for assistance to get there. And I just kind of tapped his arm to let him know I would take him there. And once we got to that bus stop, I realized for those who are familiar with New York City when it's late night and you've just missed a bus, another bus isn't coming for a very long time. So that's where we were in this moment. And I wanted to let him know that I'd sit and wait with him, but I realized I didn't know how to communicate to him.

And just on the spot in that moment, I just took his palm and started tracing one letter at a time on it, writing to him, "I will wait with you." And he understood what I wrote to him. And we ended up sitting and waiting for his bus and having a whole conversation that way of me writing into the palm of his hand and him writing back in a notepad. And it was a deeply impactful experience for me, really, first and foremost, because of the energy of this individual who I'd later find out was named Artemio.

He was just a very-- he had a great big smile and was very enthusiastic to learn more about me and share about himself. And just felt like I'd made a real personal connection with this individual. But beyond that, I realized after his bus came and we gave each other a big hug and he went off into the night on the bus, me left wondering if I'd ever see him again, I also realized later and still to this day of maybe unpacked this other element of this, which is that I realized that not only had I never met anyone who was deafblind prior to that encounter, I had hardly ever thought about that community or that experience at all.

I briefly learned about Helen Keller in grade school, like so many do. But after that, I'd never seen any representation of the deafblind community in my community or on my TV screen or really just in media at all, and realized that I'd never really even thought about the community or their experience other than that brief lesson on Helen Keller. So that really stood out to me, especially after I'd had such a personal, intimate moment with this person who happened to be deafblind.

And that led to about a year after that writing the film. But at that moment, I just-- sometimes things don't feel like the right timing to do them justice. And so it sat on my computer for a number of years, I think about six years. And then one day when I was cleaning up my very messy desktop of my laptop computer, which I'm due for actually right now-- I need to do another spring cleaning of it. But I was opening folders I hadn't opened in a while and came across the script and had that instantaneous moment where-- like that feeling in my gut, where I was like, I have to figure this out and make this right now.

And it was actually looking back on it somewhat comical because before my rational brain kicked in, I found my fingers googling deafblind organization and my finger dialing the first number that came up on Google. And before I kind of came to, I heard someone on the other end of the line saying, hello? Hello? Is anyone there? And I was like, oh wait, I don't even know why I'm calling yet. I haven't even thought about this, but I just-- my lips started moving and words started coming out of my mouth. And I said-- I remember because this is a very bizarre thing to say to someone that you don't know. But I said verbatim, I said, I don't know why I'm calling you right now, but I have a story to tell you. And I feel like after I tell you that story, it'll be more clear.

And I told this man on the other end of the line who I would later find out worked for this-- I mean, he clearly worked for a deafblind organization because that's what I put in Google. But he worked for deafblind children's services in the Bay Area. I told him about this encounter I'd had years ago at that time still. And in that moment, I said-- and I said how I had written this film, and I want to make it. And again, I hadn't even thought about this yet, but in that moment I just said, and I feel like I want to cast a deafblind actor in the film. Is that crazy? I said to him, which is not necessarily the best way to phrase that, but that is how it came out.

And he said, no, not at all. I think that's a great idea. You should reach out to the Helen Keller National Center. And as you can tell from some other individuals from the Helen Keller National Center that are on this very Zoom, it ended up working out in collaborating with them. Sue, who at the time was the executive director-- Dr. Sue Ruzenski, who you'll hear from later, who at the time was the executive director of Helen Keller National Center is now the CEO of Helen Keller Services, ended up getting back to me some time later. And we had a fateful meeting in Los Angeles when she just happened to be there where I live now.

And huge credit to Sue, who said, hey, look, we don't do this, and we've never done this. But this sounds worth doing. Let's try to figure this out, for which I'm still very grateful for. And from there I had the great opportunity of also collaborating with Chris Woodfill, who you'll hear from later as well, who was really the man tasked with putting out the casting call for Artie, which was the deafblind character in the film, which was a nod to Artemio, the real-life figure that had inspired it.

So worked very closely with Chris to audition a number of deafblind individuals throughout the country, some in person, some over Zoom. And we're so fortunate to arrive on Robert Tarango, who I wish could be with us this evening, who did an amazing job in the film. And one thing that I'll note about him, something that he has often shared in these kind of discussions is that he's someone who grew up loving acting and wanting to be an actor, idolizing a lot of the classic movie stars from his day, but feeling that someone like him, who, again, was born deaf and later would lose his eyesight and become deafblind, that someone like him, he never saw or heard of anyone like him on screen and just didn't think it was something available to him.

And then years later, he was able to get this opportunity to do an amazing job, walk the red carpet of the Oscars and inspire many other people in the community to-- we've heard from so many people since then that we're wanting to try their hand at acting thing as well. So it's just a really-- he's a really amazing microcosmic example of why representation is important, and what that looks like and how that can inspire others to follow suit.

So that's a little bit of the backstory of the film. I think now might be a good time to show it. And then we can talk more about it afterward. But one other thing I wanted to note about how we'll be sharing the film, we'll be sharing a version of the film that has open captions. So that means the captions are burned into the picture as well as audio description, which is a descriptive track of all the action that happens in the film for people who are blind and low vision.

And for those of you who maybe don't usually use those elements of accessibility or aren't familiar with them, particularly audio description, most people are familiar with captions, but for those of you who maybe aren't familiar with audio description, this might be a good opportunity for you to experience another way of engaging with the film. So without further ado, I'll cue that up. Is there anything else to note before getting started there?

[Samuel Levine] No, thank you so much, Doug. We're really looking forward to it. And I'm particularly interested myself. I've seen the film before, and it's a very powerful experience. I'm particularly interested in experiencing the film with those features that you mentioned that will give those of us who are not deaf or blind or hard of hearing or eyesight, just maybe a bit of a sense of what it's like to experience a film through that lens.

[Doug Roland] Excellent. Well, without further ado, I will cue this up here. And here we go.

[VIDEO PLAYBACK]

- Tereek, a Black male teenager wearing a hoodie, winter parka and backpack, stands in front of a fast food joint on a busy NYC street with cars and people rushing by. He checks his phone, taking it in and out of his jacket pocket a couple times as he shifts from foot to foot and glances around. Tereek receives a text. He had previously typed, "Can I crash at your spot tonight?" A response from Corey reads, "Again? Let me hit you back later." Tereek waits outside the turnstile in a busy subway station.

Excuse me, Miss. Do you have a swipe?

- He asks a woman who is exiting for a swipe. She ignores him. Tereek jogs down a dimly lit street with shop signs in Chinese and graffiti covering the walls. He pulls his hood up, catching his breath and collecting himself. He rounds the corner where his friends stand waiting. JR is Asian and the other, Clay, Hispanic, is smoking.

[CHATTER]

- The three boys are in a bright, neon lit video arcade, excitedly playing a game together.

Oh!

- Back on the street, the boys stand in the circle, play freestyles.

- (SINGING) With my boy Tereek

Whoa!

With my boy JR

'Ey!

- The boys eat noodles from Styrofoam takeout containers. Tereek shovels them into his mouth.

That's kind of weird. And you're getting a whole gym? That's why--

Come on, JR.

- Tereek watches as JR and clay playfully fight. Tereek jumps in, taking JR's place. It escalates. Tereek gets too physical. JR pulls him off of play.

I'm not being serious.

- The boys are sitting quietly on a stoop, surrounded by graffiti. Clay offers Tereek a cigarette. Tereek declines. JR's phone buzzes.

Again?

Who that?

My mom.

OK.

- Tereek gets a text from Corey that reads, "Tonight don't work."

Yo, that was my Mama Dukes. I've got to bounce, bro.

- Tereek has a worried look.

I've got like five missed calls already. We out.

I've got to go home, too.

Be safe, bro.

- The three friends slap hands goodbye. Tereek glances back, watching his friends leave.

[SOLEMN MUSIC]

- He turns back around, looking sad and alone. Tereek is perched on a metal post next to a brick building. He composes a text to Rhoda. How have you been? Cool if I roll through? He pauses, changes the "you" to a letter "U" and the "C" in "cool" to a "K" and hit Send. A weathered homeless man approaches holding a worn paper change cup.

Can you spare a coin?

I ain't got nothing, man.

Can you spare a coin or a nickel?

I said I ain't got nothing.

- The homeless man, looking dejected, slowly turns and limps away. Tereek watches as the homeless man walks down the block and approaches a man holding a white cane in sign that is too far away to read. The homeless man shakes his cup near this man who does not respond. The homeless man leaves. Tereek is intrigued and slowly approaches the man with the cane.

Tereek takes off his hood, and looks at the man's sign, which reads, "I am deaf and blind. Tap me if you can help me cross the street." Tereek looks closely at the man. This is Artie, 40, short gray hair, and a friendly demeanor. Tereek, confused, looks around.

Hey, man.

- Tereek tries speaking to Artie, then, realizing the futility, taps him to get his attention. Artie reaches for Tereek, startling him. Artie puts down his backpack and takes out a pad and blue Sharpie. He writes, "I need M 15."

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um-- OK. It's close. You just--

- Tereek helps Artie get his backpack on.

It's close, all right? Just--

- Tereek turns Artie toward the street and taps him on the back. A large white truck [INDISTINCT].

[ENGINE REVS]

Tereek is unsure what to do.

[SOLEMN MUSIC]

He looks around. Artie holds out his right arm. Tereek deliberates. He tentatively takes Artie's hand, placing it on his left shoulder. And leads them down the street. Tereek guides Artie to a seat in a bus shelter. The street is dirty, deserted, and dark, except for the light of the shelter and a string of lights behind. Artie takes off his backpack and places it on the bench next to him. Tereek gets a text from Rhoda, which reads, "How soon? It's late."

Tereek draws a breath, appearing relieved and replies, "On my way." Artie taps on his pad to get Tereek's attention. He has written, "How long until the next bus?" question mark. Tereek walks over to check the posted bus schedule. Tereek rubs his hands together as he walks back toward Artie, hesitating momentarily, as if figuring out how to communicate. Finally, he takes Artie's hand and slowly taps it with his index finger. 1, 2, 3, 4--

- Artie follows along.

5, 6, 7, 8--

- Nodding with each tap.

9, 10.

- Artie nods and smiles, showing he understands. Tereek turns to leave. At the bus shelter across the street, Tereek sees a bus whiz by a sleeping man. Tereek looks back at Artie, whose eyes are closed and has a peaceful expression on his face. With a look of frustrated obligation, Tereek walks back to Artie. He takes Artie's hand and places it on the empty bench seat next to Artie. Tereek takes off his backpack, sits next to Artie.

Tereek pats Artie's knee several times to reassure him that he's there. After a moment, Artie reaches over and Pats Tereek's knee several times. Artie sits back and smiles. Tereek smiles in response. They sit calmly next to one another. Artie takes out his Sharpie and writes on his pad. He shows it to Tereek. It reads "Bodega nearby?" question mark. Tereek shifts back and forth, frustrated, hesitating briefly. Then takes Artie's hand.

Tereek uses his index finger to write one letter at a time on Artie's palm. "Can it wait?" question mark. Artie clicks his pen a couple of times to make sure it's open and writes on his pad. It reads, "I'm very thirsty." Tereek glances up, looking tired. Artie walks with his hand on Tereek's shoulder. Tereek looks away for a moment.

[CRASHES]

Oh, sorry!

- Artie's cane hits a construction barrier. Tereek helps steady Artie. Artie shakes his head. He extends his arm to Tereek.

I got you.

- Tereek puts Artie's arm through his. They resume walking, Tereek now with more care. Now in the bodega, Tereek scans the refrigerated drink section and opens the door to make a choice. Artie stands patiently by the register in front of a 30-something Hispanic cashier who stares awkwardly at him. Tereek approaches. Places a tall can of iced tea on the counter. Artie takes out his wallet, holding it open for Tereek to take. Tereek thumbs through and takes out a $20.

Can I get this too, please?

- Then points at a Snickers bar and hands the money to the cashier.

$3.

Thank you.

- The cashier hands Tereek the change. Tereek places the money back into Artie's wallet. He hesitates, then pulls out a $10 bill and places it in his own pocket before returning the wallet to Artie. The cashier notices and stares at Tereek. Tereek stares back.

What? You've never seen a blind and deaf guy before?

- The cashier lowers his gaze and busies himself behind the counter. Tereek glances back at him with a hostile look before opening the door and leaving arm in arm with Artie. We follow behind Tereek and Artie as they head down a dark street. And a bus speeds by. Tereek lets go of Artie's arm and races after it to no avail.

Why, I got to get stuck with this?

- Behind him, Artie pulls out the iced tea from his pocket and takes a big sip. His face lights up with satisfaction. Tereek can't help but smile. Tereek and Artie are back at the bus shelter, Artie drinking his iced tea and Tereek eating his Snickers bar. Artie places the can on the ground and reaches into his backpack for a wool cap that he puts on his head. Artie reaches for his pad. He writes, "Tell the bus driver to tap me at 129th?" question mark. Tereek takes Artie's hand and writes back, "Yes." Artie takes Tereek's hand in his and feels it.

Young man.

- Tereek is surprised to hear Artie's voice. Artie writes, "Your name?" question mark.

[GENTLE MUSIC]

- Tereek spells. T-E-R-E-E-K. Artie tilts his head with curiosity. Artie writes, "Pleasure to meet you!" exclamation point. Tereek can't help but enjoy this.

[GENTLE MUSIC]

- Tereek writes, "Name?" question mark. Artie writes, "Artie." Tereek writes, "Why out late?" question mark. Artie clicks his pen a couple times, smiles then writes, "Date." Tereek smiles and looks a bit surprised and amused. Artie writes, "You?" question mark. Tereek takes Artie's hand. Finger poised to spell, but hesitates briefly this time, furrowing his brow. Finally, with a pained expression on his face, he slowly writes, "Same."

- Artie pauses as if understanding there is something significant in Tereek's hesitation. The two sit, Tereek fidgeting slightly with his hands as Artie turns to put his pad away. He reaches down into his backpack and finds a bottle of water, he pulls out. He shakes his head from side to side in disbelief, then shows it to Tereek and begins to laugh. Tereek looks at the bottle, also with a look of disbelief. And the two share a good laugh about this inside joke.

[LAUGHTER]

- Tereek and Artie are now both asleep, Artie's head on Tereek shoulder. Tereek is awakened by the buzz of a text from his phone. He slowly removes his hands from his jacket and gently adjusts Artie until Artie is sitting upright on his own. Then Tereek reaches into his jacket and pulls out his phone to read a text from Rhoda. It reads, "It's late. I'm going to bed." Tereek glances to his left at Artie, still sleeping. He looks back at the text, deliberating.

- Then clicks off his phone. Tereek looks back at Artie. He makes a move, then stops himself. Then he carefully reaches across Artie, pulling the pad out of Artie's backpack and begins to read it. It's a small spiral notebook with messages scribbled everywhere at different angles and different colors of ink. One message says, "Which way is 96th Street?" Tereek flips the page. Another reads, "Please leave the room and close the door."

- On another page, he reads, "Can I kiss you?" Tereek, moved by what he just read, glances back at Artie, who's still sleeping peacefully. Tereek vulnerably looks up and directly into the camera. We get closer to his face as he puts his hands over his ears and closes his eyes. The screen goes black. With picture back up, Tereek notices the sound, takes his hands off his ears and opens his eyes. He runs out of frame and chases down the bus, tapping the side until it stops. The doors open and Tereek addresses the driver.

You mind waiting just a quick second for me?

- Now on the bus, Artie is seated near the front. He hands Tereek his metro card. Tereek approaches the driver, swipes his metro card. The driver rubs his eyes, appearing bored and tired.

This guy is blind and deaf. You've got to tap him and let him know when he gets to 129th Street. His name is Artie.

- The driver looks away, uninterested.

Excuse me, sir. Could you tap him and let him know when he gets to 129th Street?

Sure.

No, not "sure."

- The driver now looks at Tereek.

He just wants to get home.

I'm going to take care of the man.

Artie.

- Tereek is impassioned, moisture in his eyes.

I'm going to take care of Artie. Get him off the bus at 129th street.

- Tereek looks down.

Thank you.

- As if embarrassed to show his emotion to the driver. Now back with Artie, Tereek takes his hand and writes, "U OK?" Artie is smiling. Eyes closed, he nods. Artie rises, takes Tereek's hand and spells, "You'll be OK." Tereek appears stunned and moved by this. Artie pulls him in for a warm embrace. Tereek hugs back with feeling. They release. Artie he places his hands on Tereek's shoulders, then sits down again. Still moved, Tereek exchanges glances with a middle aged Black woman farther back in the bus. She smiles approvingly at him.

- Tereek turns and walks off the front of the bus. Artie sits peacefully smiling. Now off the bus, Tereek walks to the sidewalk and watches the bus as it pulls over. He stares longingly. He waves bye in its direction, tears visible in his eyes. Then something occurs to Tereek. Now back on the same block where he met Artie, Tereek walks briskly and comes to a stop. He looks down with concern.

- You see, he's looking at the same homeless man from before, asleep on the ground, covered in a musty green blanket. Tereek reaches down and drops the same $10 bill he had taken from Artie in the homeless man's change cup. Tereek takes one last, caring look at the homeless man, then turns and walks away. He heads back down a dirty, deserted street with old-fashioned lampposts and store signs in Chinese.

- He puts up his hood and places both hands in his pockets as he slowly fades into the distance. Braille appears on the screen, then morphs into the title, Feeling Through. More Braille appears, then morphs into a film by Doug Roland. Black.

[GENTLE MUSIC]

[CREDITS ROLL]

[END PLAYBACK]

[DESCRIPTION] Video stops playing. ASL Interpreter- Karen Magoon,Samuel Levine, and Doug Roland appear in a Zoom grid format, each with their respective titles displayed in their video boxes. Karen Magoon the spoken words.

[Samuel Levine] Thank you, Doug.

[Doug Roland] Thanks.

[Samuel Levine] And I have now seen the film a number of times, and it still has that impact, so has that power. And I introduced you. I think you described yourself as a social impact filmmaker. And indeed, in 18 short minutes, you really did deliver quite an impactful film. And I will want to talk a bit more along with your co-panelists, about the work you did with Helen Keller Center and the advocacy that you continue.

We saw the kind of a transformation. And the acting was so great and the direction obviously it was so great to display for us the transformation that you powerfully described in your own life. Before we talk about the advocacy and other efforts, I did want to ask a bit about some of the reaction you received, not so much from Helen Keller Center or from others who are involved in deafblind and other disability rights. What about the reaction from the industry? What was the response to your idea to take this step and to make a film starring a deafblind actor?

[Doug Roland] Yeah, well, to reference that story I was telling you when I picked up the phone to get the wheels turning on this, I told you that it was really just instinct in that moment to want to cast an actor who was deafblind, but would later, after working on the film and the collaboration that we had with HKNC and then exhibiting the film and sharing it in a lot of places, I would, through that process and through a number of years now, learn a lot about how disability and Hollywood interact or often don't interact enough with each other, and particularly the conversation around authentic casting, which is something that is a really vibrant conversation right now pertaining to actors with disabilities.

And again, that really just refers to when you have a character written into a film or a show who is disabled to authentically cast that character with someone who is disabled. And that is something that is really important to many people in media right now, particularly many advocates from the disability community in media advocating for authentic casting and people with disabilities. Not just for the sake of the performance, though that often is a very nice aspect of authentically casting, but also because historically people with disabilities have had little to no opportunity to even audition for roles, let alone get those roles, whether they be roles that are written as disabled characters or not.

So it's something that was very well received in that regard as being an example of that, particularly in a case where it hadn't really happened before. So that was something that ended up being a vibrant part of the discussion later on as we shared the film in a lot of different spaces.

[DESCRIPTION] Dr. Sue Ruzenski joins with her video displaying.

[Samuel Levine] Terrific. Thank you. And now, I would like to turn to Dr. Sue Ruzenski, the CEO of Helen Keller Services. And you all saw-- we all saw Sue's name in the closing credits and Helen Keller, of course, displayed-- Helen Keller Services and Center displayed prominently as producers, co-producers of the film. So, Sue, we've heard Doug's perspective and Doug's experiences in trying to bring this project, this dream, as it were, to fruition. What was it like for you to be contacted and to be involved in something that, as we've heard, you had never really done before?

[Dr. Sue Ruzenski] Thank you, Dr. Levine. I just want to say hello to everyone, and it's a pleasure to be a part of this panel. And hello, Doug. It really was an amazing experience for me and my colleagues. It was a labor of love. And I have to say, that initial phone call that I received, I was a little skeptical. And I really wondered, I have to have some reservations here on speaking on behalf of the organization and really wondering. Because here I am working in this field for all these years, and isn't it sad that I could not wrap my head around having someone cast as a lead role who is deafblind in a film? We've never seen it.

And so I'm saying, Is this person for real? Is he really talented? But I have to say, I was intrigued. And the wonderful thing about serendipity and things happen for a reason, and this really truly was-- it was meant to be. We were leaving very shortly to go to California to meet with some colleagues and some stakeholders. And I had met the director of field services. We decided to meet Doug and his team, team to team, face to face in a lobby of a hotel.

And Doug, again, began to tell his story and his goal of this movie. And it was like an instant, the holy instant where we were said to ourselves, we are in-- we want to work with you, Doug. We felt this genuine compassion and really this curiosity mindset, someone who, truly we wanted to connect with and collaborate. So from there on, I mean, I'm just fortunate that I happen to be the executive director at that time. And I could be witness to this creative, groundbreaking work of art and Doug's creative genius, because it was really wonderful to be a part of that experience.

And my role as the executive director is really to help support the project and bring together the organization, the people that can really support Doug and his learning. So at that time, people were giving time to Doug. He would immerse himself at our center, meeting with people who have the expertise in areas like tactile American Sign Language, orientation and mobility, just the interpreting staff supporting him, looking at how to make the environment accessible. It was just a process, ongoing process. And I was kind of behind the scenes, here and there. We were back and forth consulting.

One thing that we did work on together early on was looking at funding for the film. And you might have seen in the credits that Seed&Spark was the mechanism that Doug had identified as a way to-- it's like a GoFundMe for filmmakers. And we were able to raise the money for the beginning of this creation. So that was one area. As things continued and we were able to, as Doug said, exhibit the film and show it in different venues, and he was a part of that. And many of our staff across the country were included. And we opened up theaters.

And it was such a great opportunity for the community, people who are deafblind to enjoy the film and be a part of it and to be part of these Q&A panels with the audiences. And it brought to light the need to look at accessibility for theater goers who are deafblind. So there was so many ripples and so many things that happened as a result of this. I think for me, as a person who was in that position at that time, I think it taught me many lessons.

And one of them in particular was really about open your mind more and lean in to the unexpected opportunities and the partners that are out there that may come from a different place, but are really truly going to not only raise the visibility of the organization to really support our mission, which is to really enable people who are deafblind, to live, work, and thrive in their community of choice, but a core value. A heart of what we do is employment.

So having this opportunity to see someone like Robert Tarango really go after his dream job. And this is what he had thought about for years in the past and to succeed. And it just-- there's so many more opportunities for people to have access and opportunities to careers that are really person-centered and built upon their aspirations and their strengths. So it was so many positives that happened as a result.

[Samuel Levine] Thank you so much. And thank you for all of your leadership over the years more generally and specifically with respect to this film, taking on this project that you weren't quite sure about. But I'm sure that you are so happy to have taken on. And now I'd like to bring Chris Woodfill into the conversation.

[DESCRIPTION] Chris Woodfill joins with her video displaying.

[Samuel Levine] And Chris's name likewise appeared in the credits of the movie. And Chris, if you could please share with us a bit of your own background, your work at Helen Keller National Center, and specifically, your role in bringing this film to fruition.

And Chris has shown up on the screen smiling and waving hello. Yes, this is Chris. It's my pleasure to be on this panel with everyone tonight. And it's always good to see Doug again, with a big smile. It's been a while, but it's nice to see you again. Doug is smiling and nodding back. This is Chris. I just wanted to explain a little bit about my background briefly. I identify as a deafblind person. Absolutely.

[DESCRIPTION] Chris Woodfill begins signing. Interpreter narrates signed language from Chris.

[Chris Woodfill] And you may be wondering how I became deafblind. I grew up-- I was born blind. I had visual sight. I utilized American Sign Language. And I was involved in the deafblind world. I was involved in the community and the culture. However, when I was 18 years old, I had found out that I had Usher syndrome. And that was the number one cause of my deafblindness. And that's the number one cause for deafblindness for younger individuals, not for senior ages, but for youth and working group individuals. So that's the number one cause.

Usher syndrome means that you have retinitis pigmentosa, which we refer to as RP, which restricts your visual field to where you have tunnel vision. So you can see right in front of you. And sometimes it depends on the individual, your vision may stay as a tunnel, or you may lose all your sight. Balance is always an issue. And I walk back and forth. When I'm walking, I don't walk in a straight line. My vestibular is actually not present. So that is incorporated with Usher syndrome.

So at age 18, I was kind of up in the air. I didn't know what to do at that time. I identified as a deaf individual, but now I've had to make a mind shift. And knowing that I would become blind, I had to take a step back. I was a little bit in shock. But, I don't mind telling you my age now. I'm actually 48 years old. So this had been 30 years. It was my 30-year journey of being deafblind. So I don't mind just expressing that.

So as I said, I ended up with tunnel vision. And that's why I'm able to see the individuals on the Zoom platform. I'm not able to see peripherally. I can only see in my center. That's my acuity. And I identify as a deafblind person. The next panelist you'll meet is Scott. And you'll meet him later and he'll explain about his deafblindness, which is quite different from mine. And individuals within the deafblind community are diverse.

Not one deafblind person represents the entire deafblind community. And you will see two representatives or representations of deafblind individuals here on this panel tonight. So it's wonderful to see the different perspectives for deafblind individuals within the deafblind community. I've worked here at Helen Keller National Center for the past 11 years. I started in the year of 2012. Prior to that, I was an instructor at the deaf school. And prior to that, I taught English at a university, at Gallaudet University.

So that's my combination of my career. As I mentioned, I worked at Helen Keller National Center for the past 11 years. For that time frame, I've been an associate executive director. And I am what you call a jack of all trades. I did everything here at Helen Keller National Center. My role has evolved over time. I was a supervisor, and then I moved to another supervisor position.

But however, in general, my role as just ensuring that Helen Keller National Center can be the best it can be. And so that's my perspective is to elevate the bar here at Helen Keller National Center and thrive and have Helen Keller National Center be the best it can be. So that's my most essential role, and that's how I view my role here at Helen Keller National Center.

Thirdly, my involvement in the film, it's actually a funny story. And I have to tell you this story. And I've told it many times. When Sue, during that time, she was the executive director. And I was the associate executive director. She says, hey, I have a project for you. She's always saying that to me all the time. I have a project for you. And I'm like, OK, sure. So she gives me the project. And she said, there's going to be a deafblind person that they want to cast in a movie. And so you need to find individuals who can be cast in this movie.

And I was like, Huh? And it just came out of left field. I was really thrown off. I didn't know what to do in that instance. I'm not involved in Hollywood. I don't know anything about Hollywood. And she wants me to cast a deafblind person for the lead role. I don't even know where to start. And mind you, in my mind, occasionally, I was given or asked-- well, no, let me take that back. I was given or contacted by individuals out in the community to do some bizarre things or some somewhat suspicious things.

And so I would just get those requests and just kind of set it aside. And it would kind of just die off, right? I wouldn't have to deal with it. But I thought, maybe this might be one of those things I was assigned to. I'll put it aside. And if it just goes away, that's fine with me. It was continuous. It did not die. It was quite alive. And so I had to do work on my end. And I'll tell you what, it was a fun project. I thoroughly enjoyed it. At first, again, I was a little skeptical, a little reserved. But like Sue had mentioned, keep an open mind, look for new opportunities, new ideas, new ways of doing things.

And so once we started, I was all in. At first I wasn't I was a little skeptical. And I wasn't so sure. But after we started, I was all in. And still to this day, I'm in things. I don't even know how many panels I've been on. It could be over 100 panels. But this, there's so many opportunities for being a panelist on various platforms. Also, I, of course, was involved in casting and promoting Feeling Through.

I did have a role to kind of convince some essential people to be supportive of this film. For example, Marlee Matlin. She did. I did help with getting Marlee Matlin involved with this, and she was involved into the Oscars. And there are just so many. facets of this process that I was involved with. Oh, and not to forget, the interpreters. I helped out with interpreters and coordinating the interpreters for this film. So I had so many responsibilities within this film. And still to this day, I'm still involved. Thank you.

[Samuel Levine] Thank you so much, Chris. And as we said to Sue, I'm so glad that you stuck with it and you pursued it. And we see the results. So now, as we say, last but certainly not least, I'm so pleased to welcome into the conversation Scott Davert. And Scott, if you would have an opportunity to share with us, likewise, a bit of your own background and some of the work you've been doing at Helen Keller Services and more generally in terms of your work in accessibility.

[DESCRIPTION] Scott Davert joins with his video on.

[Scott Davert] Sure. Well, first of all--

[ASL Interpreter- Jeff Trader] This is the interpreter. Scott, just FYI, we can see your ceiling. Just wanted to give you that visual information.

[Scott Davert] Whoa, that is great, isn't it? Is that better? I'm sorry. [LAUGHS]

[ASL Interpreter- Jeff Trader] A little more downward, looking at the ceiling again, I think.

[Scott Davert] Wow. OK. How about there? I'm like a long way from my phone now.

[ASL Interpreter- Jeff Trader] Still. Yeah, still at the ceiling. I'm not sure. Maybe--

[Scott Davert] Yeah, I don't know.

[ASL Interpreter- Jeff Trader] There you go. Right there.

[Scott Davert] If you guys don't mind--

[ASL Interpreter- Jeff Trader] Right there, Scott.

[Scott Davert] Is that good?

[ASL Interpreter- Jeff Trader] Yep. That's perfect.

[Scott Davert] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for jumping in and helping me with that. I had a computer issue. I had everything all set up. And that's what happens sometimes with accessibility. Anyway, thank you very much for having me here this evening. It certainly is an opportunity. My background, I am also deafblind. I'll start by clearing that up. That is what I identify as. Of course, as everyone here is probably noting, well, number one, I'm not great at managing my own video. That's because I've not had any vision ever in my life.

So I do the best I can with it and also that I do not have interpreters here because I'm able to speak because of the way I grew up. Now, Chris grew up with American Sign Language. I grew up with spoken English. My vision has always been zero, as I said. However, when I was young, I had what would be probably considered normal hearing that I utilized very heavily as a blind person because blind people are often taught how to navigate through their environments through audio. So that was the way I learned. And of course, it created a lot of challenges later for me when that audio started slowly disappearing.

So that's a little background about me. I've been working in the field of deafblindness with technology for a long time. If I go back and start thinking about internships, it's been almost 20 years at this point-- I'm getting old. So what do I work with in terms of accessibility? I mean, that is such a very, very complicated question because accessibility is something that is required everywhere, right? You have to have things that people can use and should have an equal experience regardless of the ways in which they access the information.

Just to give an example, I'm using an iPhone right now. And I'm using that connected to my hearing aids so that I can get audio directly to my ears, because the internal speaker on the iPhone isn't clear enough. I'm also using what's called the Braille display. And the Braille display is also connected to my phone. Both of these are done through Bluetooth. And essentially, what it does is it shows what is on my screen in Braille.

In other words, there are a bunch of pins below the surface of this device. And the pins pop up according to the corresponding Braille dots. So that's the very basics of how that works. And unfortunately, not everything is created equally in terms of accessibility. For example, what these technologies do essentially is take text, although we're getting into images and things like that now with AI, but that's a whole 'nother topic for a whole 'nother session.

But it takes text. And so what that means is that this technology by default cannot exactly read images only. So developers have to also include text when they develop their applications or websites or whatever it may be. And failure to do that means that people like me cannot access whatever it is. And that could be anything from something as simple as shopping online. I use Amazon regularly. It has varying degrees of accessibility along with pretty much every other website. But if that breaks, I'm cut off from it. And that does happen.

And when you look into the technology that's available, it's amazing. It's really what drove me in to be in this field was being able to work with and help other people understand the technology and also, selfishly, learn more about more cool technology. Accessibility is something that oftentimes people have to adapt as well. For example, when I was a teenager, I started having difficulties hearing in loud environments. Well, teenagers are loud. I don't know if you've noticed that, but they can be. And it was very difficult for me to follow conversations in loud environments because I had hearing aids, but those hearing aids amplified everything.

So what did I do? I decided to join the ham radio hobby for several reasons. One, I had control over the volume of the other person speaking. Two, if I couldn't understand them or I couldn't hear them, I could say, oh well, there's a problem with static or something like that. And three, they couldn't judge me based on my disability because for all intents and purposes, I'm just somebody on the radio. They don't have any visual representation of me and therefore, can't judge me based on that unless I disclose that information, or perhaps they learn it from somewhere else.

That's true inclusion to me, in that I was able to completely interact with that environment at that time. I couldn't today due to my decrease in hearing. But it allowed me to do all kinds of fun things that I would have never dreamed of. For example, how many people do who have directly talked to the International Space station? I've done it a couple of times with different astronauts. So to put that into context, What the heck does all this mean? you might ask. I'm asking myself that all day, every day. But you can join me on that quest.

But what all this means is that to create an inclusive environment, to create an environment whereby anyone can interact with that environment. It really takes an open mind. You may notice that's a recurring theme here, right? Sue talked about having an open mind in approaching this project. Doug had to have the idea for the project. Chris had to decide, You know what? I'm going for this. I'm going to do it. I've never done this before. It's not comfortable for me, but I'm going to do it anyway. I'm going to learn, and I'm going to grow as a person.

And a lot of the time when working with people with really any disability, I would say, remember, they're human. So, for example, if you see a deafblind person walking on the sidewalk, ask yourself a question before you approach them. Would I do this to any other individual who maybe didn't have a disability? For example, would you walk up to a stranger on the street and grab them by the arm and pull them in whatever direction you think they would want to go? That'd be a terrible thing to do, wouldn't it?

I can tell you it is a terrible thing to do. I've had it happen to me many times. And people may be well-intended in what their actions are, but the people who sometimes try to grab me and pull me in specific directions, they have no idea where I'm trying to go. And sometimes it really boils down to that basic courtesy, even just if you can communicate with that person, say, How can I help? What can I do to support you? Instead of just assuming what will help them, and it not working out. That, generally, isn't a good approach, I would say.

But to put this back in the accessibility realm of technology, when employers or potential employers or the government or whoever designs a website, there are standards in which they can follow so that adaptive technology is compatible with it. Failure to do that leads to-- let me just give you some examples from the last week alone. So I do a thing. I work with a lot of different deafblind clients. I also work with a lot of professionals in the field.

But one of the things I do, because we are so focused on employment here, is to apply for jobs myself, using my adaptive technology, not using assistance from a sighted or hearing person. But I do it myself. And the number of applications that I've attempted to complete and haven't are significantly higher than the number of those that I'm able to successfully apply to.

Now as anybody in the US knows, culturally speaking, that's like the second thing people ask you-- What's your name, and what do you do? Deafblind people, because of accessibility issues, can sometimes be completely cut off from getting a job and developing that identity. And depending on what's accessible and what's not, they may be cut off from thriving in their community. But if people would take their accessibility needs into consideration and have an open mind about it, it often leads to things that will benefit everyone.

Curb cuts, that's a great example of a thing that was developed for people with disabilities and now everybody uses it. Closed captioning on TV. How many times have you been in a bar and you couldn't hear what was going on? Maybe you wanted to know what was going on. You had to look up at the screen to follow the captions. Those weren't developed for people who are hearing. They were developed for individuals who are deaf.

And I'll do a 180 here very briefly. And let's talk about accommodations for a second. OK, I have no vision. My eyes don't work. I don't need video such as it is. I hope it's still acceptable, but I don't need that. I don't need lights on in my room. In fact, it costs energy, right? Electricity and all these things. I don't need it. In fact, when I'm at home on my own, I just turn my lights off. Why would I waste the energy? But of course, if I have someone who's coming over that's dependent on that light, of course, I should turn the lights on. Of course, I should make them feel comfortable and welcome in my home environment.

So in that case, I do turn the lights on. Not because I need them, but because someone that I interact with does. And that's no more or less important than my needs. Remember, at the end of the day, whether you're sighted or whether you're hearing, whether you're deaf, whether you're deafblind, we're all human. We all have feelings. We all want to be included. And I guess that's my overall message tonight.

[Samuel Levine] Thank you so much, Scott. And thank you, too, for taking both the challenges and the opportunity that have come your way. So we do have a couple of questions from the audience. And I do want to take a few moments to leave a few moments for those questions. But before we do, I wanted to close this part of the conversation to talk moving forward about some of the work, Doug, you have been doing with the center. And I understand that Scott has been instrumental in developing this platform where you are working to further advocate for disability rights and inclusion.

[Doug Roland] Yeah. So in sharing the film and often alongside the companion documentary that kind of goes behind the scenes of how it all came together, which I described earlier, we got an opportunity to share it, not just in traditional screening spaces, but also in schools, with organizations and conferences. And it kind of organically turned into also this educational tool to get people interested and engaged with the films and then really leaning in and wanting to actively learn more during these panel discussions that we'd have with individuals from the deafblind community.

And it became very evident from doing so many of these screenings that there was something more here. And that's when the idea occurred to me to create a platform that was a much larger collaboration, where it was an opportunity to have many different people in the deafblind and disability community weigh in on crucial topics to really offer an opportunity for the viewers to get a holistic understanding of disability, something that, fortunately, I think a lot more schools and organizations and institutions are realizing is a really essential thing for people to learn about whether it's something that directly impacts their lives on a day-to-day basis or not.

Depending on what statistics you look at, as much as 20% or more of the general population or people with disabilities. And so we're all connected to colleagues of, family members of or disabled oneself that it's impossible to not be connected to someone in the community given the vast numbers of it. So it's so important for there to really be a-- we thought it was really important to create a space that was a fun and engaging way to learn about disability. And that's where this-- that's the whole idea where this platform called Feeling Through Studio, which the films are also part of Feeling Through and the companion documentary along with in our initial launch that we're almost ready for.

There'll be, I think, about 45 video chapters organized across seven different primary categories. That is, again, designed to be this interesting and entertaining way to learn about all different aspects of disability. And Chris and Scott appear as presenters in a number of the videos as well, sharing their knowledge and lived experience alongside about a couple dozen other individuals. So it's been a real undertaking for sure, but something that's been just such an amazing experience and really, something that was a really wonderful thing to have it be such a large collaboration with so many different voices weighing in.

Because I think as anyone on this Zoom could tell you better than myself, most of the important topics pertaining to disability aren't anything that lend themselves to one neat, clean answer. You line up 10 people-- as Chris well put before, in Chris and Scott being deafblind, but having very different lived experiences, you could line up 10 people who are deafblind and meet 10 very different people who have very different lived experiences. So that's why we thought it was so important for it to be a large collaboration and one which we plan on growing even beyond the initial launch of it.

The platform is designed to continue to grow and evolve and include other communities as well, the vast-- essentially everyone in the launch is deafblind, with some people who are blind and low vision as well. But we'd love to collaborate with other communities. Dr. Levine, I'm sure we'll have a conversation at some point about that, but, yeah, it's been a real pleasure to work on that. And we're really excited to get out in the world.

[Samuel Levine] Thank you so much, Doug. And before I pose a couple of questions, we're just going to pause for a moment to allow the interpreters to switch. So one of the questions from the audience, and this is something that really occurred to me several times as I've watched the film. And it's directed, I think, mostly at Doug, but also in many ways at both Chris and Scott. Doug, your ability to come up on the spot with the idea of writing in his hand, that really struck me. What was it? And you've described your own almost intuition throughout this process, but what was it that gave you that idea of how are you going to communicate with this individual?

And we're also interested, and one of the questions from the audience was interested in your reaction, Chris and Scott, as you mentioned, you wouldn't want someone to grab your arm without notice. But at the same time, if someone would like to help you, what would you recommend they do? So starting with Doug and how you came up with this idea to write in someone's hand.

[Doug Roland] Yeah, I think it was largely born out of desperation in that moment because I was like, I didn't know how to communicate. I'd never encountered that situation. And like, I had initially started to voice something and realized that-- he expressed that he was deaf. And then I'd found myself, like, gesticulating, but realizing that he couldn't see me and trying to search for some way to communicate something beyond like a pat on the back or a tap on the shoulder.

And honestly, I'd never thought about it prior to that, but just in that moment, that was just the only way that I could think to communicate with him. And I would later find out, through connecting with people at Helen Keller National Center that that's called Print on Palm and is something that is used at times when someone like myself does not know tactual ASL or ASL signed into the hand in this case and instead would write letters in someone's palm like that.

So I would later find out it was something that is sometimes used but had certainly never heard of it before. And really, I guess was just fortunate to occur in my brain because I'd never even thought of doing it prior to that moment. So I guess it was just something that was kind of born out of this strong desire to communicate and just not having any other options or thoughts as how to do in that moment.

[Samuel Levine] Absolutely. And Chris and Scott, the question really was looking for some additional guidance.

[Scott Davert] Sure, can I go ahead?

[Samuel Levine] Sure, Scott, please.

[Scott Davert] Sure. No, I wanted to make sure that-- because I can't see what's going on the screen. So I didn't know if Chris had already started signing or not. So I just wanted to make sure of that before I started. So in terms of communication, typically it's best to approach a deafblind person maybe with a tactile if you can't seem to get their attention verbally or visually. Just put a light hand on their shoulder and see what they do.

Because a lot of the time what happens is, I don't know somebody's there as an example. But I may use a Bluetooth keyboard with my iPhone and a Braille display to communicate. And you might say, Well, why don't you just use Print on Palm? And the answer is because I never learned print. Never had a need to, really. I mean, I didn't understand early enough in my life that I would need print for something like this. And I know my print numbers, so those tactile signs on elevators, for example, or sometimes hotels even will have raised embossed print numbers but not Braille.

So I have learned my numbers, but I haven't learned my letters. So that would not work for me. Now, in my particular case, if somebody comes up to me and, for example, I'm maybe attempting to communicate with somebody in a store, maybe, I would verbally say something to them like, hey, I can't really hear you, but if you use this Bluetooth keyboard, you can type to me, and that'll work, which generally works good, but when some people learn that, I can speak, they think that if they yell loud enough, I'll hear them.

Now I have hearing aids and in quiet environments, I can use them. However, in a loud environment, we'll say an airport or a store-- and yes, I do go to airports and stores on my own-- it's a much different environment. And so from the deafblind perspective, you really have to think on your feet in terms of, OK, what can I do to most effectively communicate with this person? Because if you're someone that doesn't know me, how in the heck are you going to know, right, what's going to work for me?

Because as Chris and I have already kind of illustrated, when you meet one deafblind person, that's it-- you've met one deafblind person. And there may be several others who are similar to that individual, but just like we all have our own food preferences and preferences on where we want to go on vacation and all these kinds of things, we also have not only preferences but different abilities in terms of how we communicate.

And like Doug said, that's a whole large conversation. And you ask 10 deafblind people that question, you're probably going to get 10 different answers. So I hope that kind of helps muddy the waters even more.

[Samuel Levine] Thank you. And Chris, will we get a different answer from you?

[DESCRIPTION] Chris Woodfill begins signing. Interpreter narrates signed language from Chris.

[Chris Woodfill] Well, yeah, this is Chris. As far as communication, there are just so many communication modes. And that goes from signing to signing very small. Like I said, I have tunnel vision. So if somebody with a small tunnel left of their vision might need you to sign in a smaller space. Somebody might use tracking, where they put their hand on your arm or your wrist to keep track of where your hands are or tactile, where they put their hands on top of your hands, where they use a microphone or assistive listening device, where they use the Bluetooth technology and go speech-to-text as far as what Scott was saying.

And I've traveled the world. I've been to over 50 countries. And I've met deaf and blind people, deafblind people from all over. And the communication, I've seen finger Braille, where they've used Braille on individual fingers and knuckles down to the nail. This is A, E, I, O, U. And up to this knuckle and up to the top knuckle. They just tap on those. And I was just fascinated by it, how they were communicating with finger Braille. So there are just so many different modes of communication within the community. And people also use a lot of different technology to communicate.

I don't use my voice. I don't use spoken English. I just sign. If somebody is trying to talk to me, sometimes I'll text back and forth with them. So that's the technology that is my go-to. I can give you another example. There's a deafblind man that's from Delaware. And he has Usher syndrome, just like I do, the deafness and retinitis pigmentosa. And he's going to a store, perhaps and needs to deal with a salesperson. And when he's out in public, he'll use Siri because he uses sign language.

And then he'll use Siri where he'll ask the person to speak into his phone. The customer service representative will just-- you're used to that as people who can hear speaking into the phone. And that's converted to text. He can read the text, and then he can text back to the customer service provider. And so you can do that, and you can do it on your iPhone, your Apple products, your Android products. And with Apple, it's Siri. And he was able to work in that environment with that.

So if you have absolutely no technology, if my batteries have died in my technology, if I don't have any access to any of that, and I don't have paper and pen, then Print on Palm is where I'm going to go, just like Doug. So it works. And the point is there's just so many varieties of communication modes and people kind of pick the one that meets their abilities.

[Samuel Levine] Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Chris. And I mentioned that we've done a number of programs to promote disability rights and inclusion in autism and other areas. And we are strong proponents of the principle of nothing about us without us. So for those and other reasons, we're so pleased to have both of you with us, Chris and Scott. And to your point, we're also proponents of the proposition that if you've met one person on the autism spectrum, you've met one person on the autism spectrum. And clearly, the same is true for deafblind individuals. And it's really an important lesson for all of us. So the time really has flown. I do want to give Sue another opportunity, if there are any further remarks you'd like to share with us before we close the program.

[Dr. Sue Ruzenski] Dr. Levine, I just want to say thank you to Touro Talks for really bringing this topic and this wonderful film to the attention of your audience. It really has-- I think even though the story itself is all about human connection and the power of that, and what we've learned through this experience in terms of storytelling. Sometimes as an organization, we've gone about things where you try to tell people directly certain things about inclusion or accessibility.

But sometimes it's really more meaningful when we make that meaning through conversations like this, having the opportunity to look at a film and then really, exchange our perspectives and just really, see things differently, question our assumptions, that whole idea of transformational learning and what that really is, how our values and beliefs and our assumptions can kind of shift through these connections. So thanks for having us.

[Samuel Levine] Thank you. And Doug, it's your story, not only the story that you've told us, but it is your story and your transformation. So on that note, are there any closing remarks you'd like to share with us?

[Doug Roland] No, I think that was-- Dr. Ruzenski's words there were a great way to go out. And I just want to echo saying thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

[Samuel Levine] Well, thank you all for joining us.

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[TEXT] TOURO TALKS, TOURO UNIVERSITY, WWW.TOURO.EDU

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