Never Alone: Prison Politics and My People

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[DESCRIPTION] Touro Talks intro displaying photos of students and faculty across the university, fading into the Touro University logo.

[TEXT] TOURO TALKS TOURO UNIVERSITY, Never Alone: A Conversation With Gil Troy and Natan Sharansky, October 14, 2020, Touro Talks is sponsored by Robert and Arlene Rosenberg

[DESCRIPTION] Dr. Alan Kadish speaks to the camera in a library setting. Touro University logo is at the bottom right.

[ALAN KADISH] It's really a pleasure to be here tonight with a great hero, Natan Sharansky, and with Gil Troy. I'm actually going to do something a little bit unusual, which is introduce Gil first, because we're going to hear about Natan Sharansky in his discussion of the book, which is a biography of himself. Gil Troy, who's joining us tonight, and I want to thank both Gil and Natan for waking up or being awake at 3:00 in the morning to join us. They're both in Israel.

Gil is a distinguished scholar in North American history at McGill University. He currently lives in Jerusalem. He's an award-winning American presidential historian and a Zionist activist. He has written books and essays in a number of major outlets, and coauthored the book that we're going to discuss tonight, Never Alone-- Prison, Politics, and My People with Natan Sharansky.

Natan Sharansky is a legend and doesn't require all that much introduction. But for those who have not had the opportunity to read your book, Natan, or might know your name only casually, can you summarize your life experiences and what you've done?

[DESCRIPTION] Natan Sharansky speaks to the camera in a library setting. Touro University logo is at the bottom right.

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Well, the previous title of our book-- good morning, good evening. The previous title of our book summarizes it very well, 9-9-9. 9 years in Soviet prison, 9 years as a minister in Israeli government, 9 years as the head of Jewish Agency. But then it was decided that it's too light-minded, not serious title. So we went to the title which really expresses the idea of the book, Never Alone, which means that once you discover your people, you are never alone.

I was an absolutely assimilated Soviet Jew in the Soviet Union. There was nothing Jewish in my life except of official anti-Semitism, and there was no freedom, of course. And there was no strength to fight for freedom because there are no values except of value of survival.

And when I discovered Israel after 1967, Israel entered our lives very powerfully. And when I started reading in the underground about history of Jews, and suddenly, you realize that with some switch of your mind, you can be part of this unique history of this unique people who are coming as tourists from all over the world.

But say you are from Odessa-- my father is from Odessa, the whole family, they all want to help you. And there is the state of Israel, which is ready to do everything to help you to be free. That's what gives you strength.

That's how we start-- I was activist and then spokesman of Soviet Jewry movement, the human rights movement in the Soviet Union. Then, as a result, spent nine years in prison-- never felt myself alone in prison. Was sure that Jewish people continued the struggle.

After I was released, and it happened so that I was because of the strong pressure of the Jewish world. I was the first political prisoner released by Gorbachev in 1986. Then we joined my wife [INAUDIBLE] whom I didn't see for 12 years. And we were separated one day after our chuppah and then continued life in Israel, where after the doors of the Soviet Union were opened, finally, 1 million Jews came to Israel.

There was a big challenge of integration. We started a political party of new immigrants, Israel [NON-ENGLISH], which permitted to bring new immigrants into the most important places where the decisions are made about their integration and the country. And then, after nine years in politics, and twice I resigned when I disagreed with the Israeli government, I spent also nine years in Jewish Agency representing Jews of diaspora to the Israeli, to the Israeli government. So that's more or less summarizes my experience.

[ALAN KADISH] And what are you doing now aside from writing and speaking?

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Well, the thing which I loved most in the Jewish Agency was [NON-ENGLISH]. There was opportunity to meet new immigrants in the airport, but also to send [NON-ENGLISH] to all the [INAUDIBLE] so I continued to be the chairman of the school for [NON-ENGLISH] in the Jewish Agency. I am the head of [INAUDIBLE] institute fighting global anti-Semitism. And there is a number of other projects that I am actively involved.

[ALAN KADISH] Well, the last one you mentioned is potentially a full-time job for several people.

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Yes. And what is really potentially full-time that, in the meantime, I'm the grandfather of seven. And, of course, we cherish every of our grandchildren because the challenge while I was in prison for many years was whether we will ever have children because they could spend in prison enough time never to be a father.

So when our first daughter was born, my late mother then took her picture and sent it to the head of my prison as, for her, it was the sign of big victory. So we keep enjoying [AUDIO OUT], and the fact that Soviet Union doesn't exist already for 30 years also makes this victory sweeter.

[ALAN KADISH] What a great story. Gil, can you tell us how you became involved in this project? You're an American. You've self-identified as a Zionist. But how did you get involved with this project in helping Natan write the book of his life story?

[DESCRIPTION] Gil Troy speaks to the camera in a library setting. Touro University logo is at the bottom right.

[GIL TROY] So first of all, good evening, and thanks for hosting. We are indeed an unlikely duo. I was born in freedom in Queens, New York, and a local boy, and spent the '80s at Harvard University studying history. Natan Sharansky was born in this vast prison camp called the Soviet Union, and spent much of the '80s in the gulag.

And we met, though, in Jerusalem. We met through our combined Zionist activism, when he was a minister of Diaspora Affairs, coming to campuses, speaking so eloquently against anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in 2000 to 2001, 2002, 2003. I and McGill University, as an American historian, was simply standing up for Jewish rights, Jewish pride, and frankly, liberal democracy on campus. And so we started getting to know each other then.

And about three or four years ago, as he was contemplating finishing his third period of nine years, his nine years in Jewish Agency, we sat down, I actually asked him to write the preface to my last book, The Zionist Ideas, which I think I actually had the pleasure of teaching about at Touro College a few years ago. And so we had this meeting where I thought we were talking about whether he was going to do the preface, and we're going on and on and talking about the Jewish people and the need for dialogue and the need for unity. I'm going, where is this meeting going.

At the very end, I said, well, will you be willing to write the preface? He said, sure, sure, sure. He'd already decided that when he got the first ask in the email. And he asked me to be his coauthor.

And we call this book a memoirfesto. It's a manifesto and a memoir because, indeed, we're using his life story, the 9-9-9, but we're trying to pass on core ideals about the connectedness between the Jewish people, about the balance between identity and freedom, as Natan was so eloquently explaining, and about the need for us to stay united, even if we don't always agree on everything, because we are part of this amazing network, this amazing heritage. And we know, when we're united, we're never alone.

[ALAN KADISH] So just quickly following up on the interconnectedness theme, I hadn't had a chance to meet you before tonight, Gil, but I grew up in Queens, and I studied internal medicine at Harvard in the 1980s.

[GIL TROY] So parallel lives.

[ALAN KADISH] Parallel lives. So Natan on your life is a remarkable story with many different experiences. But of course, one that stands out is your nine years in prison as a refusenik. Your book goes into some details, but can you summarize for the audience tonight who may not have read the book exactly how you survived and came through with such great moral strength?

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Well, KGB arrested me, accused in high treason and being an American spy, and made everything to that I will feel myself absolutely alone, isolated, humiliated. The message was very simple. Now that you are officially accused of being a spy, there is no way that you will get out alive from here if you will not cooperate with us. And what means cooperate to go out publicly and say that Zionism is wrong and they are right, and that's it.

And then there is 1 and 1/2 year of interrogations of threats and isolation. I was lucky. I was lucky because I already had this few years of activists and official spokesman of our movement. So I had practically every day to meet with the tourists, with the journalists, with the diplomats, with some senators and congressmen who are coming, and to be connected with many Jewish organizations who were part of this struggle for Soviet Jewry.

All this activity, of course, was in the end, part of my high treason activity. And all these organizations were on the list of anti-Soviet organizations. But as a result of that activity, I knew how strong this feeling of Jewish solidarity, how devoted are these tourists, housewives who are coming from America, who are trembling from fear when they are taking some of our letters to American senators, which they will have to smuggle their underwear to the airport.

And when you say to them you're so scared, please don't do it, we'll find another way, they say, no, you don't understand. We are not giving you a favor. You are giving us favor. We want to be part of this historical Jewish struggle.

And so I did know this passion and deep desire of solidarity and rediscovering of different people-- Russian Jews, American Jews, Israelis-- of our common history and this feeling of the family. And that's why I was absolutely sure that KGB is lying, that the world continues to struggle. Of course they will show that my wife continues to struggle, but I will show also that all the Jews continue to do this important work.

And one more thing, which was important, on the very early stage, you have to understand that you have to rely on things, on the people that you can rely on, that you should not feel yourself dependent on the things which don't depend on you. I mean, for example, they want to convince me that now the most important thing is your physical survival.

And they give me thousands of reasons why physical survival in prison is the most important thing that there is-- a young wife waiting for you in Israel. You're a young scientist, maybe with a good career, and you're ready to give away all this to be killed only for a few words, which we demand from you?

And you have to remind yourself that, in fact, what they want, they want to take your freedom back and to take you back to this situation of enslaved Soviet citizen and that whether you will be alive or not doesn't depend on you. Whether you will be released in a year or in two years, it all depends on KGB.

So if you start building on this planning, thinking, when you will be released, you'll be finished. They know how to destroy you. So you have to decide that your aim is not physical survival. Your aim is to stay free person, even in prison. And that depends on you. You say no to KGB, you didn't. You have to rely on your memory. You have to convince that this imagined reality of Jewish world in which you lived in the last years is a real one, and not the world in which KGB tries to put it.

And so when your aim is to continue feeling yourself part of Jewish people and to be a free person until the end, whenever this end will be, then no, they cannot humiliate you. They cannot destroy you. They cannot weaken you.

Physically, it can be difficult life. And they spent a lot of time in punishing and years in solitary confinement. But morally, it is very clear and simple life. And with every day, you feel that you're winning them, not they're winning. That's why, after nine years, when I was released, I really felt that it was a great battle which we Jewish people won.

[GIL TROY] One of the interpretations that we're trying to advance here also is that everybody looks back with nostalgia and romance. And they say, oh, we were united then. We all sang Shalach Et Ami. Let my people go, Am Yisrael Chai. The Jewish people live, and it was all simple. And one of the things that we emphasize is how complicated the movement was even then. You had Orthodox Jews and Reformed Jews. You had assimilated Jews. You had people coming from the civil rights marches.

You had people who sometimes-- Natan tells the story of you had this whole alphabet soup of different organizations, the SSJ, and all the different Soviet Jewish organizations. And sometimes, they had to smuggle documents, the same document to two different ends of Fifth Avenue, because the organizations were battling and not talking to one another. And yet they had a common goal.

And I think, today, that's a very important message because we too have a lot of pluralism, a lot of disagreement. But we also understand that if we keep a vision of what unites us, we can work together.

And the other thing is, we've really failed. My generation has failed. We have not told the next generation this amazing story, the story that really was an impossible dream. I mean, growing up in America, we didn't believe that the Soviet Union was going to collapse. I went, I marched in the rallies, I had those twinning bracelets. I even went and visited the Soviet Union. But I didn't believe the Soviet Union was going to fall. I was just doing it to be kind of a good Jewish citizen. From the inside, they knew the weaknesses. And nevertheless, we persisted.

And it's a great story. And one of the things we're hoping with the book is to get parents and grandparents telling their kids that story because it's so easy in today's world to feel despair. It's so easy to feel powerless. It's so easy to feel, oh, we're so divided. And first of all, we can find strength through our diversity, through our pluralism. But also, we can change the world. You can make a difference. That's a critical message for students, especially now, who are stuck at home on Zoom.

[ALAN KADISH] So it's an amazing perspective, and Natan makes it sound simple about how he survived nine years beating what, at the time, was the most ruthless organization in the world. But as everyone who's listening can imagine, it must have required great force of personality and great dedication. So it is an amazing story.

So let me move on to something, Gil, that you mentioned. You talked about the struggle that was going on. So I'll try to get both your perspectives, one from the outside and one from the inside. In the book, you talk about some of the controversies, one of which was there were some groups who felt that these large public protests, which we were at, were counterproductive or wouldn't yield to a desired result.

So I want to ask first, Gil, from the outside and Natan from what you knew on the inside. Do you think, in retrospect, there's any question that the public activism really helped get not only nothing but a million other Jews out of the Soviet Union?

[GIL TROY] Again, it seemed to be such an impossible task, and the fact that we were pushing, the fact that Natan Sharansky didn't disappear into the bowels of the Gulag system because there were people in New York, in London, in Tel Aviv, in Jerusalem, in Melbourne, Australia, saying Shalach Et Ami. Let my people go, and mentioning his name and the name of all the other refuseniks or many of the other refuseniks, made a difference.

And indeed, there's a tension-- and we talk about this tension in the book between-- the establishment approach-- insidery, use backchannels-- and the public approach. And I think the genius of the Soviet Jewish movement-- and frankly, we were learning from the civil rights struggle and learning from the failures of American Jewry during the Holocaust and the [NON-ENGLISH] keep quiet approach of Jews in the 1940s. And in the 1960s, '70s, and '80s, we were no longer going to be quiet anymore.

And as Natan suggested earlier, one of the things that was also amazing about this was it wasn't only a gift to the Soviet Jews. It was a gift to ourselves because we had a sense of Jewish pride. We had a sense of Jewish commitment. We had a sense of Jewish citizenship. And it really saved a generation, and it inspired a generation. And that's why we're hoping that story will pass on.

One other thing that blew my mind when we were researching the book is I thought of the refusenik movement. I counted it by the number, the thousands of people who applied for visas and the tens of thousands and ultimately millions who left the Soviet Union. Natan reports that at any given moment, during his key years of struggle, they couldn't get more than 150 people to sign a petition.

So this was a very small group of activists. There was a broader group of people who wanted to leave, but a very small group of activists who brought down the Soviet Union, who shook the foundations of what we thought was the way the world was organized between the capitalists and the communists. And it really shows that we can change the world, you and I. And even Natan, [NON-ENGLISH] We can change the world if we're focused and if we have a clear moral goal.

[ALAN KADISH] Natan, from the inside, you also talk about the fact that you think it was very helpful, but tell us what your thoughts are about this.

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Look, first of all, we did know how rigid this system of control over the minds of 200 million people is, how unstable it is, meaning it is afraid to give even small freedom to any of its citizens because they know that they will fall apart. And for them, the simple command, give me visit to Israel, let me leave Soviet Union, was like a revolution, like a challenge to the system.

And that's why the initial reaction was very simple. We have simply to put all these people in prison to make clear to everybody, those who will dare to say publicly that they don't want to live in the Soviet Union, they want to leave, or that they want full Jewish life after they were assimilated, it's our enemies. And the system will not give up.

On the other hand, we did see that the system is weak from inside, and if only the free world will have pressure, will link our demands with the needs of the Soviet Union, let's say in free trade agreement, there is a hope. And that's why, from the very beginning, our message of the activists was raise as much pressure on the Soviet Union as possible.

And, of course, there are different groups-- for example, Chabad had unbelievable [INAUDIBLE] rebel succeeded to have small groups of Jews in Uzbekistan, in Moscow, and other places, even in the worst days of Stalin. And that's what is incredible.

On the other hand, the line of this organization was never irritate Soviet authorities. And we knew. And of course, there were some representatives of American Jewish establishment who were saying that we Jews are too weak to irritate authorities. We have to convince the authorities. And we in the former Soviet Union knew that if all the quiet diplomacy can bring any results, it's only if Soviet Union will be under strong pressure.

And that's why we support this pressure. That's why Jackson Amendment, which was an Amendment of Senator Jackson, which connected Soviet immigration, free immigration with the free trade with the Soviet Union, irritated greatly Soviet Union. And it was put as the crime of high treason into my case. But we believed that it is exactly this pressure which makes Soviet Union to let more and more Jews to get out.

So even in my case, of course, in the end, it was secret negotiations about my release. And there was a lot of secret negotiations led by President Reagan. But these secret negotiations could never even start to finish successfully if there was not a massive protest and pressure. And by the way, President Reagan understood it and was supporting us Jews to protest, to press the Soviet Union, what will help him to successfully finish his negotiations.

[ALAN KADISH] So some of the most amazing stories in the book, Natan, are by your wife, Avital. She fought for you after she left for Israel, before you were in prison. While you were in prison, she traveled around the world finding people who could help and never gave up on you. How did she do it? What created this incredible strength in her that allowed her to never give up and to be with you the entire time and survive 12 years of separation?

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Yeah, well, as I recommend everybody, before you go to prison, you have to marry, as I married. It was very shy, very beautiful girl whom I met in the days of Yom Kippur War, near the synagogue where she came to find out what happened to her brother. And I just recently organized a demonstration together with her brother, and he was arrested for 15 days. And that was the love from first glance.

But I was already refusenik, fighting with the authorities. She didn't yet start this process. I was the one who decided that at least she has to try first to go. Maybe at least one of us will be in Israel. And it happened so that we had our chuppah. The next day, she left for Israel.

When she left for Israel, she was a shy girl who spoke few words in Hebrew and no English. When I met her 12 years later, she was already the leader of 100 demonstrations of hundreds of thousands of people. She opened the doors of practically every president, every prime minister, every outstanding public figure in the West, and was very convincing in bringing the cause of Soviet Jewry.

Of course, first of all, it happened because all the Jews of the world, all the Jewish organizations, and of course, the state of Israel that were supporting her. But you have also to remember that very early in your aliyah in Israel, she felt at home from the very first moment. She has [NON-ENGLISH]. She became religious. And Rav Kook, the pupils of Rav Kook were her teachers.

And so when it was-- they appeared an article on Purim, in the Soviet newspaper accusing me in espionage. And it became clear that I can be arrested almost immediately. And she was very concerned. And she went to the Israeli authorities that we have to do urgently something. And the Israeli authorities said, wait, we don't know what are exactly the accusations. We have to wait. Well, I had some problems with them that I am also a dissident fighting for human rights. But in general, let's wait. Let's not be in a hurry. And she felt there is no way to wait.

Then she went to Rav Kook. Her teachers took her to Rav Kook. He was already a very old man. But when they came to him and he was explained about this article, he immediately called his pupil. It was during the night. And he said, again, there is a new blood libel the moment one Jew is accused in high treason and espionage, all the Jews are the Soviet Union in danger. We have to act immediately.

And he said, you have to close the books and to go and struggle immediately. And when one of the young rabbis said to him, but now between Purim and Pesach, we have such special programs of studying how we can close the books, he became irritated with old men, like he said, those who don't know when to close the books should not open them. The Jews are in danger. Jews are in danger. Go to fight. And that night was created [NON-ENGLISH], I'm keeper of my brother. [NON-ENGLISH]

And the group of activists was united around Avital. And then she was accompanied all over the world in the years to come by these young rabbis and young activists. And of course, it gave you a lot of strength and this letter of support or encouragement of Rav Kook which reached her in London, I think, when she immediately started traveling all over the world, appealing to the other Jews, that feeling that she is part of the great struggle for saving the Soviet Jews gave you a lot of strength. And together with the passionate desire to see your husband alive and to start our Jewish family in Israel, all this together made it.

[GIL TROY] If I could tell one of my favorite Avital stories, in 1985, when the United States and the Soviet Union hadn't really been speaking for the first couple of years of Reagan's presidency, and now they're finally negotiating, Avital shows up at some summit. It also goes to your previous question.

And she's making noise, and she has a press conference that upstages some of the delicate negotiations. The Soviets are furious, but also some of the American negotiators are furious, including people from the military. And they're talking about banning Avital and trying to show the Soviets they have goodwill by distancing themselves from her.

And Secretary of State, under Ronald Reagan, George Shultz, says, hey, wait a minute. Stop. He said, if I was in prison, I would want a wife like that. And I think we all would want a wife like that. We all want an advocate like that if we were in trouble.

[ALAN KADISH] It's an amazing story. So let me switch topics a little bit and talk a little bit about one of the issues that you address in the book, which is the relationship between the Palestinians and Israel. And as you know this is a issue which is, as Gil mentioned, there's a lot of pluralism in the American Jewish community.

It's one that, to some extent, divides the American Jewish community as well. So as someone who's been a freedom fighter and an activist, some people would suggest that you'd be naturally sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. So tell us a little bit about how you view this relationship and how you see us moving forward.

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Well, I am naturally sympathetic to Palestinians who are suffering from the lack of human rights and from dictatorship in their own society. When it was even not popular, I was always saying that I want Palestinians to have all the rights that I have, but not to have opportunity to destroy me.

I believe that the fact that we are controlling, or in some way, continue to control the lives of the people who are not voting for our government is not good also for us. And I have some very good Palestinian friends who are real activists fighting for human rights and for freedom of Palestinians. And some of them are writing in our book.

And that is why I was absolutely against so-called Oslo peace process. From the very beginning, I was stating that it is not peace process at all. Why? Because from the beginning, after the first week after signing the Oslo Accords, our prime minister explained clearly what we mean. We mean that now Palestinians will have strong dictator. We brought this dictator, and we declare that he will be their leader, that we will make everything, that he will be strong in order. He will work for us and will fight our enemies.

And I quote our prime minister, "without restrictions of democracy, without Supreme Court, human rights organizations, and free press, Arafat will defeat Hamas much easier than we do." And then, one week after the Oslo agreement, I wrote my first article again saying that we hope that this dictator will fight against our enemies. He, as a dictator, will do everything to bring up his people in more hatred towards us because that is the way how dictators survive.

And, unfortunately, that's more or less what happened. So I never believed in the peace process where we are looking for dictator, how to turn this dictator into our dictator, how to make him enough corrupt to transfer him public money, $30 million in private pocket of Arafat every month. It was public money of Palestinians. That's what we are doing in order he will be our dictator and to bring peace. That is not the way to bring peace. Peace has to be brought from bottom up.

By the way, from this point, the last Abraham Accords have much more chance to succeed. First of all, we are not bringing dictatorships. We are simply negotiating with the dictatorships which exist. But we are also encouraging civil societies, people to people, businessmen to businessmen, people of arts to people of arts, it's so different by its very nature than the peace process which was done until now.

That's why I found myself in a very strange position, sometimes, in the class of my own, voting against, looking like a right-winger because I'm voting against concessions to dictators and speaking like a left winger because I'm speaking the language of human rights, and that the real peace can be built only on encouraging civil society, not destroying civil society.

[NATAN SHARANSKY] So I know you're not in the government anymore, so maybe I can ask you this question. Do you see a chance for progress with the Palestinians in the near future? You talked about the Abraham Accords with amazing success of foreign policy. What do you see going forward?

[NATAN SHARANSKY] I always saw the opportunity and I was proposing my own Marshall Plan for Palestinians in the Netanyahu government, and then the Ariel Sharon government. I was talking about it with Barack, but Barack never believed in anything but immediately signing some agreement and solving all the problems. I always believed that he believed that it has to come from the bottom up, that there must be strengthened civil society, that there must be leaders who are elected by their own people, and that's why they are interested in well-being of their people.

And between those leaders, Palestinians, and our leaders who are also interested in the well-being of our people, we can really come to compromise. And from this point of view, the fact that now, with these accords, the free world is not blackmailed anymore, but this idea that there never will be good relations with Arab world if the Palestinian problem is not solved, which means if Israel will not give up on all those demands of its own security.

The moment we destroy this paradigma and are looking for a different way, let's build a civil society. Let's build relations of trust. And as a result, it also will influence the Palestinians. Let's have economical projects which will help us to take Palestinians out of refugee camps, which will make them a part of the joint ventures which bring economical change, which will bring modern education, and if it will be universities from Abu Dhabi, OK, but whatever. All these steps are bringing us closer, closer to real peace, to real partners, to negotiate about peace.

So the fact that Palestinian problem will be solved not before our relations will be normalized with the Arab world, but after, during this, makes it much more real to solve it.

[ALAN KADISH] Great. Thank you. That's an incredible view of the future, which is hopeful, but realistic. So when you talk about the 9 plus 9 plus 9, throughout the book, Gil and you talk about all the different organizations you've interacted with in Russia, in Israel, in the United States, within government, activist organizations, outside organizations, you've probably had a more varied experience with organizations than almost anybody in the world.

And you talk about a lot of successes. And you've had tremendous success. And you also talk about some failures. As you mentioned, you resigned from the government a couple times. So do you have any advice for people? Are there any global principles you can sort of extract for how you work with an organization? Or is it really very different depending on each organization?

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Well, of course it is different, as to the times of struggle for Soviet Jewry. We had many different organizations, Students Struggle For Soviet Jewry, and Council for Soviet Jewry, and Conference For Soviet Jewry, and Coalition For Soviet Jewry, and many others.

And most of the Jewish actors don't know about all these different organizations. But I, as a spokesman, I had to know when I'm sending some tourists some important information, to which organizations will reach and which organizations will never reach. Because the organizations are not talking to one another. They are competing with one another. And it's very irritating.

But in that, you see, first of all, you never forget that they all have the same aim. And when I'm arrested all these organizations are on the same list. And all these tourists are on the same list of my accomplices.

But what's also important to understand, that, thanks to this variety of organizations, we can reach practically everybody in Jewish world. There are religious, and secular, and human rights activists and Zionist organizations. There are those who are involved through trade unions and those who are involved through private businesses. And so that's what gives us the opportunity to reach everybody.

Now, when-- after I was released, my wife gave me some advice from her experience, that now that you go first to America, remember, there are activist organizations and there are establishment organizations.

Those who will start any important initiative, will be activists. But those who will finish this work, who will put the real muscle behind this, it's establishment. So you have to know how to inspire the first, but then how to mobilize the second.

And when establishment will finally adopt the idea, you know you have won. Then they will take all the credit. But that will be the victory. And it's interesting, I came to America and the famous March on Washington, which was organized. It was the greatest achievement of American Jewry.

But started, I gave this idea that let hundreds of thousands of American Jews go to Washington. Establishment said it's absolutely impossible. It was yeah, activists of the grassroots who were pushing that that is possible. We want to do it. And then the moment the establishment accepted it and mobilized all the resources and all the airplanes in America, and all the logistics, it was a success.

So the idea is how you're balancing between your sympathy, solidarity with the activists and your need at the same time to work with the establishment. That was one set of problems in that struggle.

In the government itself, I would say sometimes my experience is almost makes it very difficult to be the government and be right about it, that as a dissident, you know that you should make no compromise with KGB. And as a member of the government, you have to make compromises every day. That is the nature of coalition government.

And every day, you are thinking, which of the compromises really is OK and which goes against your beliefs? And that's why I was in four governments, but I resigned twice. For example, for comparison, I was in four prisons. And I never resigned. So it says it's about challenge, difficulty of being in the politics.

[GIL TROY] As an academic, you know very well that I don't get along with anybody, and I don't work with anybody, and I don't know organizations. But what I did learn from watching the way Natan views the world is that you know how there are some people who look at other people and see the worst in them and others see the best in them?

I think Natan has this expansive view, both of human beings, but also of organizations, that he's able to see the best in each organization, and see what he can bring out and where he can connect to them in the most constructive way.

And so rather than starting with what they cannot do, or what they didn't do, or how they let him down, or that they violated some turf agreement with one another, he always started with, how can they help? How can we build? And from that, you see his skills. And it's quite striking, he went from being quite the stubborn guy in prison to being quite the compromiser and the bridge builder between Israel and diaspora, between different factions and government.

And I think it's because that ability to bring out the best in us. And I think that's also an important critique of what's going on in American society today, and unfortunately, in Israeli society. We often see the worst in one another, if they dare to disagree with us, rather than seeing the best. Where's the bridge? Where's the connection?

And I think we have this beautiful Jewish concept of hakarat hatov, of being able to acknowledge the good. And I think that is really-- and it's not something that he grew up with, but it was deeply ingrained in him instinctively. And I think that was his real key and continues to be his key in being able to bring people together, even when they might have battling agendas in the small, but not in the large.

[ALAN KADISH] That's a very important piece of advice. So thanks for that. I have a question from the audience before I wrap up with some questions about the future. It's actually from a faculty member at Touro, who said that he left the USSR in 1976 and has been disappointed particularly in the Russian-Jewish community in the United States, about how rather than more closely integrating with the rest of the American-Jewish community, it's remained somewhat aloof and separate.

And I think one might ask the same question a little bit about Israel, although you not spent a lot of time trying to work with the community and make it part of mainstream Israeli society, but there's the impression that at least this one professor has, that the American-Russian community-- Russian-Jewish community hasn't really integrated well. And why is that? And do you see it as a strength or a weakness? And what do you see for the future for the American Jewish-Russian community?

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Well, we write a little bit in our book, write a lot about debates in Moscow. What should be the attitude to those who are fighting to go to Israel then go to America? And Israel tried to close the doors for those Jews in America. And I was among those who were absolutely against closing any doors, who said Zionism should continue to be absolutely volunteer thing.

But at the same time, we were aware of the fact that those who go to America, let's say, they are under the biggest danger of assimilation. That's why-- By the way, I don't think that Russian Jewry who came to America were not integrated into American society. They were not integrated into Jewish community. That's true.

And why? Because all the institutions, Jewish institutions, which were created in America were not created for this type of Jews. They were absolutely secular. Synagogues, they never were in synagogues. And they-- most of those who came here didn't feel any need to go to synagogues.

All the debate between reformed, conservative and Orthodox didn't exist for them, simply because it was debate about religion. Their Jewish identity was coming from anti-Semitism and national pride as the response to this.

So the other institutions are institutions of tzedakah. And they were still very far from being part of the world. [INAUDIBLE] had to make [INAUDIBLE]. And as we could see, they emerged huge Russian-speaking communities, which didn't feel themselves comfortable in the organized Jewish community.

On the other hand, they did have some very strong characteristics which could be important. For many years, they could see that on the demonstration solidarity with Israel, they sometimes were more Russian-speaking Jews than English-speaking Jews.

Because defending Israel and fighting against anti-Zionism, it was something very natural for them. So really, the challenge was how we are trying to autoadjust our institutions or build institutions which would be appropriate for this community.

And, in fact, when birthright started, they were special Russian-speaking groups and many other projects, which Russian-speaking communities started creating for themselves.

And then there were some communities, like in Toronto, or in Chicago, or in San Francisco, where federations or Jewish establishment understood that they have to let Russian-Jewish community to build their own initiatives and to use them as a bridge.

So it is a complicated process. I would say-- and we are explaining in the book, if there was better dialogue between Israel and Jewish organizations of America about how to deal with this phenomena of Russian Jews coming to America, I think we could be much better prepared.

And one of the reasons which we were not prepared, because there was almost no dialogue. Because Israel was too busy saying that those who went to America are bad Jews. They are betraying our cause. And those who were in a Jewish organization in America were very busy saying that they are very good American Jews. They are exactly like us, instead of trying to understand what are the identity of these people is built differently. And we have to adjust it.

But the good thing is that, after all, second generation, if they succeed to save themselves from assimilation, they are becoming very important part of the Jewry. And--

[DESCRIPTION] Nahum Twersky joins and speaks to the camera with a plain background. Touro University logo is at the bottom right.

[NAHUM TWERSKY] But, hey, I just want to jump in for one minute, take this opportunity to thank the three of you for an outstanding, stimulating discussion this evening. I want to put up a quick slide that will just illustrate how you can order the book, which I'm sure you'll delight, and then turn the floor back to Dr. Kadish to close.

[ALAN KADISH] Thanks. We're waiting for the slide over there.

[NAHUM TWERSKY] There we go.

[DESCRIPTION] Slide showing Never Alone book cover and text.

[TEXT] Available at your local bookstore or through Amazon.com

[ALAN KADISH] Never Alone, through amazon.com, like everything else in the United States, available on Amazon.

[NAHUM TWERSKY] The floor is yours. [CHUCKLES]

[ALAN KADISH] It's a great read, an easy read. And you've heard a few of the great stories tonight, but there are a lot more. I just wanted to point out, Natan, that many of those Russian Jews actually are our students now. And we're very happy to have them.

One more--

[GIL TROY] On the circuit among the pro-Zionist community, you often see a lot of names that are either Israeli names or Russian names. And Russian Jews get a very strong sense of peoplehood that, unfortunately, the third, and fourth, and fifth generation of American Jews are starting to lose.

[ALAN KADISH] So, Gil, let me ask you about one other story that one of the audience members asked about, was the story of Natan's Tehillim. Tell us a little bit about the story and tell us what your reaction was to it.

[GIL TROY] Well, I think there are two parts of the story. There was this amazing Jewish airmail going back and forth. Because, as Natan says, he's separated from his wife. Their honeymoon, basically, is him driving her to the airport. And rather than flying off together, the Russians had given her a visa and not him in order to demoralize him. And she flies off to Israel, and they don't see each other for 12 years.

And at a certain point, shortly before he ends up in prison for nine years, he gets this thing from Israel. Because Jewish tourists were constantly bringing letters and to the extent they could bring gifts back and forth to Avital and Israel and Natan in Moscow. And one of them is this book of Tehillim. And this book, which he keeps with him to this day, is his companion throughout the time that he's in prison.

And I think the three takeaways I get from it are, one, the profound relationship he ends up having with King David and with God through that amazing book of Psalms.

And he also, I think, in many ways, improves his Hebrew. He had a basic knowledge of Hebrew. But through reading those beautiful poems, he understands more of the language and plays with the language. And you see the way that his mind is able to kind of grow, and expand, and stay sharp during nine years, which are filled with so much isolation and so much deprivation intellectually. Chess in his head and the Psalms in his pocket are an important part of it.

So it's both a kind of practical tool, but also obviously a deeply spiritual tool, part of the whole thing of never feeling alone, part of the feeling what he also calls the interconnectedness of souls. And it's a reminder, I think, daily and minute by minute that you're never alone, that you're part of something bigger than yourself, that you have faith.

And so that's the first takeaway. The second takeaway is that it becomes sometimes a part of the power struggle. I mean, even when he's finally on his way to freedom, if the KGB doesn't allow him to have the Tehillim, he sits down in the snow and won't move. And by this time, they're anxious to get him out, to get rid of him. They have a deal with Reagan. And so it becomes yet another way he drives the KGB crazy and yet another way he pushes back against this incredible insanity called the Soviet Union and finds his own sanity.

And, third, and I think becomes an important bridge when he leaves the Soviet Union and he comes to Israel, and everybody's saying, ah, Avital has gone religious. And Natan is secular. They must divorce.

And he says if the KGB couldn't keep us apart, how could something like-- couldn't pull us apart, how could a little thing like religion pull us apart? And indeed, his love of the Psalms, his deep connection, his living daily relationship with King David and with Hashem, with God, become the way for them to find a [NON-ENGLISH] and for them to share a sense of faith, a sense of love of the Jewish people, of each other, and of our tradition.

So it was very inspiring to me about how this one little book, [CHUCKLES] one little, little book could do so much. And to this day, it's in his breast pocket.

[ALAN KADISH] Amazing. I'm sorry, go ahead.

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Oh, I have to add two small things. First of all, when I received this book from the tourists, there was a note from Avital that this book was with me for a year. I have a feeling the time has come to send it to you. And I put it aside. I didn't understand most of the words. I didn't have time for such small things when I have these press conferences and demonstrations. Few days after this, I was arrested. And then I remembered the note of Avital, how she had this feeling that she has send to me. And that's how I started fighting for it.

Second, when they gave me this book, finally, together with the telegram that my father passed away, they decided that I'll be reading until I understand everything. And there is an ocean of words, million of words, which many of them which I don't understand. They don't know where is the ends of the sentence and the beginning. And I try to decipher this.

And the first-- as a mathematician, I'm simply comparing the words that I know and try to learn connection. And the first phrase which I understand fully, which jumps on me from this ocean of words, is [NON-ENGLISH] When you go through the Valley of Death, we have no fear because you are with me. [NON-ENGLISH]

And that is the first phrase, that King David, HaKadosh Baruch Hu Avital are sending me message. So that is the mysticism of this story. And that's why, yes, it was always with me.

[ALAN KADISH] And it's been an inspiration for generations of Jews. And it's amazing to see what it's done for you. Last question, for many American Jews, we've been pretty lucky for much of our lives. It's been a relatively comfortable existence.

And the last year has been tough. It's been tough because of COVID. It's been tough because what we see is a rise of anti-Semitism. It's been tough because we see the continued mixing of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism.

You've been through much worse and remain positive and optimistic. Are you optimistic about the future and how-- and can you try to help us with some of that optimism?

[NATAN SHARANSKY] Well, of course I am optimistic. for our future, because of our past. Look where we were 50 years ago or 30 years ago and where we are today. And I know how it happened. I know that it was a miracle which happened because, after all, with all our disagreements between Jews, our desire to continue our journey through history as a Jewish family was bigger than this. And, in fact, this book is exactly about this dialogue. And what unites us is, after all, much stronger than what divides us.

But mentioning only one of the things that you mentioned, anti-Semitism. Growing anti-Semitism always was uniting us. For the first time, we have real danger when it can divide us. Because there is simultaneous rise of anti-Semitism, on the left and on the right.

And for many Jews, it's so easy to criticize anti-Semitism among their opponents and to try to ignore or play down the anti-Semitism in their own camp. And the challenge here is how we can understand that hate is hate, anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism, whether it comes from our political camp or the political camp of the opponent. And we should not permit to our enemies to divide us politically so strong, that even strike against-- fight against anti-Semitism will not unite us.

So these are the challenges. But, yes, I'm optimistic. Gil. What about you?

[CHUCKLES]

[GIL TROY] David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir said, you can't be a Zionist and a pessimist. And so it's partially personality, but it's partially ideology. We're optimists, because we're Zionists, because we've seen the miracles happen in our own days.

As I said, I saw the miracle of Soviet Jewry when I didn't believe. And one of the things we talk about in the book is the road test. The road test is, where is the society going, in which direction? And indeed, as he gave the analysis, 30 years back, 50 years back, we're going in the right direction, although we have bumps in the road.

And it's not only that we have to have a clear red line in fighting all forms of bigotry, racism, and anti-Semitism, and not letting the left fight only the right's extremes and the right fight the left extreme. But the left has to clean house, and the right has to clean house.

But it's also we have to have more of an integration. We have to be able to understand that we have identity and freedom, liberalism and nationalism, that it's not this world of either or, but that we can come together and we can sometimes find a little bit of dilemmas and a little bit of tension. But fundamentally, we want to find synthesis.

And I think that's the message of Natan's life and the message of the Jewish people, that we don't go to one extreme or the other, but we juggle, we balance. And through there, we find what Maimonides called the Shevil Ha-Zahav, the golden path, the golden mean. And that's a way to compromise. But it's also a way to find balance in life. And that's missing, unfortunately, in modern society.

[ALAN KADISH] So I'm going to close by saying not only do I think you can't be a Zionist and a pessimist, but I think you can be a Jew and a pessimist, typically. Because when you see what we've been through together and how just the idea of Judaism was able to take nothing from someone who knew almost nothing to being this passionate defender of our people and this passionate warrior for human rights around the world, I think you can't be pessimistic about the future, even if, as you say, there are bumps in the road.

And so it's been great talking with both of you, I hope we can have you back again, perhaps even in person at some point. And I want to wish everybody good night. And it's relatively still near the start of the new year. And we're all hoping for a better year this year. Thank you again. And please read Natan's book. It's fantastic.

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[TEXT] Touro Talks, Touro University, WWW.TOURO.EDU

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